Featured Sin Essential to God's Purpose in Christ !

No, I'm saying that God is ultimately responsible for what has been taken from and that which has been inflicted upon Job. The text "credits" God and in doing so, Job doesn't sin.

But, we also see that God is not the afflictor, per se; Satan is. Satan is, in a sense, acting of his own free, pride-full will, but he's also acting as an agent of God, doing only what God will allow him to do.

The text says that God is ultimately responsible for what happened to Job, and to say that is neither to sin, nor charge God with wrong.

The Archangel

 

I agree that Satan is only able to do that which God will allow. However, I cannot accept that Satan is an agent of God. Seems to me that requires a strict literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7. Frankly the story presented in these verses has always troubled me. Habakuk 1:12, 13 tells us:

12. Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
13. Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Yet in Job 1:6-12 we apparently have Satan, the source of all evil, in the presence of Holy God! It seems to me in light of the above Scripture that something other than a literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7 is required.

John Gill says of Satan's presence:

 

Satan is always under a divine leash, as he can only do as God permits him to do, but it is due to his very nature that God allows him limited freedom for His divine purposes at this present time, but the Dog shall be fully gaged and bound once Jesus returns!

For at that point in history, again this world shall be under the direct ruling of the Lord...

 

I would suggest that you're presupposing that Satan is the "source of all evil" and that is, perhaps, contributing to your interpretation of the passage being, IMO, a bit skewed.

First, I'm not aware of Satan being called "the source of all evil" in Scripture. It may be there, but I don't recall a specific statement.

I've often said that there is no neutrality in man. In other words--After the Fall--there is no angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other trying to sway man. Man experiences an all-pervasive depravity and, in Augustine's words, is "unable not to sin." When salvation occurs, man is returned to the state of "able to sin; able not to sin." So too, the fallen world is, being under the curse, a hostile environment.

The point being that Adam and Eve sinned by rebelling against God. While Satan tempted them, that wasn't the source of their sin. The temptation of Adam and Eve, as well as this episode in Job, shows Satan in his "role" as "the accuser." He's trying to distort the goodness of God to Adam and Eve--calling into question God's motives. With Job, he's calling God into question, essentially saying the only reason Job is faithful is because God has protected and blessed him.

Anyway....

What do you do--since you suggest Satan can't act as an agent of God--with the passage in, Samuel, I think, that says God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul? I'm not suggesting that the Samuel text says Satan himself was sent, but I'm seriously doubting it was an angel.

It seems the Habakkuk passage is using language typical of the Prophets, but it isn't referencing the "supernatural" world, only the natural world. So, in other words, I'm suggesting that the Habakkuk passage cannot serve as an over-arching understanding since the context of the Habakkuk passage is a nation's and a prophet's misunderstanding of the what and why of God's actions. Having preached through Malachi recently, we see this "misunderstanding" is at an epidemic level in the prophets. Now, I'm not suggesting that the statement at the beginning of v. 13 is a misunderstanding of God's nature. What I'm suggesting is that this true statement of God's nature by Habakkuk is being applied to what God is up to--bringing judgment, using pagan nations as His agent.

And, why would you not read those passages of Job literally? If we were to hold your presupposition about evil in God's presence, why would Satan be able to personally tempt Christ? Satan was, obviously, in the presence of God there. If the fallen angels cannot enter heaven, why is there a "war" in heaven in Revelation 12? Of course, the language of Revelation is more pictorial, but if the fallen can't go there, why would there be a war there?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

If Satan isn't the source or originator of evil, who is?

 

Utter blasphemous nonsense. You are making God the originator of evil and the author of Sin.

 

There is a world of difference in being under the Divine leash and being an agent of God!.

 

You might try responding to my following accusation:

I have on more than one occasion expressed my opinion of this thread and you. I would not waste my time responding to the nonsense you present and your blasphemous interpretation of Scripture. You might consider the following Scripture and learn:

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

???

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. Ps 139:6

Answer the 'whodunits' in posts 33 & 35 if you dare...

 

This is an excellent question--one that will not likely be settled in this post or thread, since it has rage for millennia.

I am of the camp that thinks sin is the absence of something. Some have described this, for example, by saying: There is no such thing as darkness. Darkness is the absence of light. So, in this sense, darkness is a natural consequence of the absence of light.

Sin is the absence of obedience. This is why, for example, sin is by it's very nature rebellion against God. Evil really isn't distinguishable in this sense from sin.

Philosophically, though, if "Evil" or "Sin" is it's own thing (ie. not the natural consequence of the absence of something) then--again, philosophically--you would have to postulate that God created sin and evil and that they were "very good." This is, essentially, the position that savedbymercy is taking.

Edited to add: And, I should add, that there is a vast difference between "creating" sin or evil and "ordaining" sin or evil. Clearly God ordains that sin and evil enter the world. But, in his ordinance that these things be, He doesn't create them.

So, when one becomes "marked" by sinful rebellion against a holy God, that person (or angel) is evil. When we commit one act of rebellion against God, we become marked as rebellious sinners who "desire only evil continually." We are marked as such because every sin is an act of self-idolatry in which we de-throne God and enthrone ourselves. When Adam sinned, he condemned his progeny to be marked as he was. It is as if his "DNA" (for lack of a better term) was re-written and sinful rebellion was passed to every one of us.

I think your question should be answered: The source of sin and evil is rebellion against God.

That is not it's own thing; it is the result of not following God, not worshiping Him as God, exchanging the truth of God for a lie, etc.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Neither of the above Scripture establish the validity of the blasphemous OP. If you think so then show how and make God the author of evil!

 

Using your logic above one could conclude that Satan does not exist. Is that what you are saying?

 

You are falsely using Scripture in an attempt to make God the originator of evil and the Author of sin.

 

No, I'm not saying that at all.

However, it isn't proper to say that Satan exists because there is evil in the world. Or, to pot it another way, evil doesn't prove the existence of Satan.

The scripture clearly tells of Satan and Scripture clearly tells of evil. I don't know that it equates them as equals.

The Archangel

 

That is the worst piece of blasphemous garbage that I have ever read! It is completely contrary to the nature of God revealed in the Bible!

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup: