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Sin Essential to God's Purpose in Christ !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I disagree with the statement.
God ordains that sin and evil be; he causes neither sin nor evil.
The Archangel
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
With all due respect Archangel it looks like a play on words to me!
ordain
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ordains
verb (used with object)
1.to invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; confer holy orders upon.
2.to enact or establish by law, edict, etc.:
to ordain a new type of government.
3.to decree; give orders for:
He ordained that the restrictions were to be lifted.
4.(of God, fate, etc.) to destine or predestine:
Fate had ordained the meeting.
verb (used without object)
5.to order or command:
Thus do the gods ordain.
6.to select for or appoint to an office.
7.to invest someone with sacerdotal functions.
As I have stated I believe in the Sovereignty of God but where Scripture is silent I try to remain silent!
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Scripture isn't silent here. And, it is always problematic to define a scriptural concept with a simple, modern dictionary.
What do you do, then, with Joseph's word to his brothers: What you intended for evil, God intended for good. ?????
The Archangel
That wasn't the intent; why don't you answer the whodunits with care not to blaspheme?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I take it just like Scripture states it and as you paraphrase it:
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Joseph's brothers intended to harm him.[Genesis 37:21ff] Did God cause their jealousy or was it Jacob's preferential treatment? You know it was Jacob's preferential treatment of Joseph. However God had told Abraham that his descendants would spend 400 years in Egypt. Nothing in this story implies that evil was ordained or caused by God. God was simply paving the way.
The story of the treatment of Joseph by his brothers and his eventual arrival in Egypt is a fascinating story. But nowhere is there fault laid on God. In fact it was the wisdom/goodness of Reuben that spared Joseph and the subsequent influence of Judah that got Joseph on his way to Egypt. We can probably say that both Reuben and Judah were influenced by God!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I stand by my original statement:
I don't know whether you were supporting the OP or not. I assume you were not as I said in my response to Don:
It is the OP by sbm that is blasphemous [From post#2]:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You're missing the point of Joseph's statement...
Joseph clearly attributes evil intent to his brothers--and this is beyond doubt. Joseph clearly says that God intended "it" (ie. their evil actions) for good.
There is, here, a dual intent. This is why theologians say "God for-ordains the free and sometimes sinful actions of persons to serve His purposes and display His glory."
God does not cause the evil of the brothers against Joseph. Nothing in the text implies that. They freely desire to harm and even kill him. (And, by the way, it's because the brothers resented him because Jacob considered him his first-born son and treated him as such).
To say that God ordains the evil of the brothers for the good of many (and to get Israel to Egypt, etc.) is to say that God stands to the side and lets the brothers carry out their evil plans. The brothers had an evil plan. God's good plan, however, was realize through the evil of the brothers.
Also, on "ordination"... God never stands behind evil, which is to say He is never the cause of it. But, on many occasions, He stands aside and allows people to be...well...people--displaying their own sinfulness and inflicting others with their own inherent sinfulness.
As the passage in Genesis tells us, however, even the sinful actions of men with free will are outside of His sovereignty.
The Archangel
savedbymercy
New Member
Creation awaits to see the Redeemed Children of God !
Rom 8:17-23
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
This World was made for a Redemptive Purpose centered in the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Before what is written in Gen 1:1-3
The Eternal Decree was Established, that God would be Glorified upon the Earth by the Work of His Son, remember Jesus said Jn 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
This Work was given Him to do from Everlasting as stated here as Christ is Wisdom Personified Prov 8:22-31
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
When God made this Earth in the beginning, it was for this Purpose here Rom 8:19
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
In these Bodies Rom 8:23
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
All of this was predestinated from everlasting. God did not make Adam and then adam sinned and God needed to intervene , No, Adam's sin was purposed by God in order to set the world stage for he outworking of the Redemption that was already predestinated, foreknown before the world began 1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Foreordained for what before the foundation ? 1 Pet 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
That was the Work God gave Him to do Jn 17:4 before the World Began !178
Rom 8:17-23
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
This World was made for a Redemptive Purpose centered in the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Before what is written in Gen 1:1-3
The Eternal Decree was Established, that God would be Glorified upon the Earth by the Work of His Son, remember Jesus said Jn 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
This Work was given Him to do from Everlasting as stated here as Christ is Wisdom Personified Prov 8:22-31
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
When God made this Earth in the beginning, it was for this Purpose here Rom 8:19
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
In these Bodies Rom 8:23
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
All of this was predestinated from everlasting. God did not make Adam and then adam sinned and God needed to intervene , No, Adam's sin was purposed by God in order to set the world stage for he outworking of the Redemption that was already predestinated, foreknown before the world began 1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Foreordained for what before the foundation ? 1 Pet 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
That was the Work God gave Him to do Jn 17:4 before the World Began !178
How so?
God had determined that Satan would be His enemy, and would be permitted to do what he desired for the plans of God to go forward, correct?
Isn't the Cross the best example of how God is firmly dtermining all that came to pass, and yet those who commited that crime were doing it "willingly?"
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I think not!
I believe that is what I said.
I would say God uses "the free and sometimes sinful actions of persons to serve His purposes and display His glory."[
I believe we are in agreement here.
I agree. I thought I said that!
Again I am repeating myself but:
Did you leave out a "not" in the above?
Archangel, Perhaps we are simply talking past eash other. I see nothing in your response to really disagree with except the initial statement and perhaps the "not" above.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I did leave out a "not," you're right.
Perhaps we are expressing the same thing differently.
Blessings,
The Archangel
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Wishing the best for you and your family this Christmas!
savedbymercy
New Member
The Primary Purpose for the Creation of the World, and everything therein, was for the Event of the Cross of Christ, all other things were subordinate to that, for Paul writing to the Colossians about Christ's fulness writes Col 1:14-17
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
All things were Created for Him, Adam and Eve, and everything else, for the Purpose of Redemption through His Blood Vs 14 !
When God Created the Earth it was for the Purpose of Christ redeeming it through His Blood, and thats why Adam must surely die Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
See, before God uttered those words to Adam, this event had alreay been purposed Acts 2:23
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Even before the foundation Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Adam bringing sin and death into the world was no accident, neither was it God's second choice of things as to say that He would rather Adam not sin and bring in the devastating results of sin and death, but it was His First and Primary Purpose that he do so , to set the stage for mans redemption through the blood of Christ, according to His Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
All things were Created for Him, Adam and Eve, and everything else, for the Purpose of Redemption through His Blood Vs 14 !
When God Created the Earth it was for the Purpose of Christ redeeming it through His Blood, and thats why Adam must surely die Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
See, before God uttered those words to Adam, this event had alreay been purposed Acts 2:23
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Even before the foundation Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Adam bringing sin and death into the world was no accident, neither was it God's second choice of things as to say that He would rather Adam not sin and bring in the devastating results of sin and death, but it was His First and Primary Purpose that he do so , to set the stage for mans redemption through the blood of Christ, according to His Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
What you're expressing here, in theological lingo, is that "God decreed the fall." This is the so-called Supralapsarian position.
Though it is mostly issues of inference and guessing on the order of decrees..., the Supra position means that God, for lack of a better term, makes Adam sin.
The Infralapsarian position, on the other hand, has God "allowing the fall." The Infra position, I think, better supports the what Scripture reveals--Man is free (not in a libertarian way, though) and responsible for his actions and God is sovereign. The Supra takes away the freedom and responsibility of man and, makes God the author of sin--if He, in fact, "decrees" the fall.
If, on the other hand, God allows the fall, then God is sovereign in a way that we see in the Bible (Genesis 50, for example) and man is responsible as we also see in Scripture. The Infra position has God "for-ordaining the free and sometimes sinful actions of man to serve His purpose and display His glory."
The Archangel
savedbymercy
New Member
I have provided scripture for my points made and you evade them !
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
There is a great question about you and your ability to read the texts you cite in proper context. Does the author of said books, verses, and chapters seek to make the point from the text that you are trying to make??? I seriously doubt it...
It doesn't matter what scriptures you provide unless they are provided in context and if they are making the Author's point, not your.
The Archangel
savedbymercy
New Member
You are just evasive ! It's up to you to prove any of my points wrong by citng the context . Now let's see you do it using context ! Usually when men can't defeat a scriptural argument they evasively bring up the context ! That means that they are defeated !
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