Sin Essential to God's Purpose in Christ !

[The Archangel]

Are you saying God is ultimately responsible in that he was the agent of cause or because of His Sovereignty?

No, I'm saying that God is ultimately responsible for what has been taken from and that which has been inflicted upon Job. The text "credits" God and in doing so, Job doesn't sin.

But, we also see that God is not the afflictor, per se; Satan is. Satan is, in a sense, acting of his own free, pride-full will, but he's also acting as an agent of God, doing only what God will allow him to do.

The text says that God is ultimately responsible for what happened to Job, and to say that is neither to sin, nor charge God with wrong.

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

No, I'm saying that God is ultimately responsible for what has been taken from and that which has been inflicted upon Job. The text "credits" God and in doing so, Job doesn't sin.

But, we also see that God is not the afflictor, per se; Satan is. Satan is, in a sense, acting of his own free, pride-full will, but he's also acting as an agent of God, doing only what God will allow him to do.

The text says that God is ultimately responsible for what happened to Job, and to say that is neither to sin, nor charge God with wrong.

The Archangel

I agree that Satan is only able to do that which God will allow. However, I cannot accept that Satan is an agent of God. Seems to me that requires a strict literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7. Frankly the story presented in these verses has always troubled me. Habakuk 1:12, 13 tells us:

12. Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
13. Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Yet in Job 1:6-12 we apparently have Satan, the source of all evil, in the presence of Holy God! It seems to me in light of the above Scripture that something other than a literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7 is required.

John Gill says of Satan's presence:

and if this presentation of themselves to God is supposed to be in heaven, as where else should it be? it is not possible that Satan could come among them; he is fallen from heaven, being cast down from thence, nor can he, nor ever will he, be able to find a place any more there, see Lu 10:18 2Pe 2:4 Re 12:8,9

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that Satan is only able to do that which God will allow. However, I cannot accept that Satan is an agent of God. Seems to me that requires a strict literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7. Frankly the story presented in these verses has always troubled me. Habakuk 1:12, 13 tells us:

12. Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
13. Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Yet in Job 1:6-12 we apparently have Satan, the source of all evil, in the presence of Holy God! It seems to me in light of the above Scripture that something other than a literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7 is required.

John Gill says of Satan's presence:

Satan is always under a divine leash, as he can only do as God permits him to do, but it is due to his very nature that God allows him limited freedom for His divine purposes at this present time, but the Dog shall be fully gaged and bound once Jesus returns!

For at that point in history, again this world shall be under the direct ruling of the Lord...

 

[savedbymercy]

To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever !

Romans 16:27

To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

This world was Created for an Redemptive Purpose founded in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ saving sinners ! Thats why the earth was brought into being, that Jesus Christ would one day utter these words Jn 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

And also these words Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now the World, the Earth was Created for that particular Work The Father gave the Son to do !

Now, since the world was Created for that work of Christ to be finished by Him, then also was Adam created by God in harmony with this Work given to Christ to do and finish !

Now in order for Adam and man in him to harmonize with God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In order for that to concur, Adam by the predetrminate counsel of God must sin and bring mankind in him to be made sinners,

Rom 5:12,19

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now them being made sinners, was no deviation from God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, but was in fact in harmony with it, because God had all the time Purposed that He should be Worshiped by man in Spirit and Truth as a Saved by Grace Sinner, Saved by the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ. See it was by the Grace of God that Christ tasted Death for the saved by Grace ones ! See Heb 2:9, which was how God purposed to bring man His Creation to Glory Heb 2:10 !

See, If man in Adam had not sinned, he could not come to God in Spirit and Truth having been Saved by the Grace of God through the Person and Work His Son ! For it was always true of Christ from the beginning of the Creation this Jn 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Adam and man in him was not able to come to the Father in this matter until after the Fall.

Before the fall, man could approach God soely as his Creator, but not on the basis of the Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, which Purpose was only revealed to Adam after the Fall here Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When this Saving Purpose was made known, it was then and only then was man able to begin to Worship God in Spirit and Truth and to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God How ?

1 Pet 2:5

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Thats Just another way of saying what Jesus stated here Jn 4:22-24

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Only way that can happen is to worship God out of apprehension/ understanding of His Salvation Purpose through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then can we be in harmony with the stated Text Rom 16:27

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.177

 

[The Archangel]

I agree that Satan is only able to do that which God will allow. However, I cannot accept that Satan is an agent of God. Seems to me that requires a strict literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7. Frankly the story presented in these verses has always troubled me. Habakuk 1:12, 13 tells us:

12. Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
13. Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Yet in Job 1:6-12 we apparently have Satan, the source of all evil, in the presence of Holy God! It seems to me in light of the above Scripture that something other than a literal interpretation of Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7 is required.

John Gill says of Satan's presence:

I would suggest that you're presupposing that Satan is the "source of all evil" and that is, perhaps, contributing to your interpretation of the passage being, IMO, a bit skewed.

First, I'm not aware of Satan being called "the source of all evil" in Scripture. It may be there, but I don't recall a specific statement.

I've often said that there is no neutrality in man. In other words--After the Fall--there is no angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other trying to sway man. Man experiences an all-pervasive depravity and, in Augustine's words, is "unable not to sin." When salvation occurs, man is returned to the state of "able to sin; able not to sin." So too, the fallen world is, being under the curse, a hostile environment.

The point being that Adam and Eve sinned by rebelling against God. While Satan tempted them, that wasn't the source of their sin. The temptation of Adam and Eve, as well as this episode in Job, shows Satan in his "role" as "the accuser." He's trying to distort the goodness of God to Adam and Eve--calling into question God's motives. With Job, he's calling God into question, essentially saying the only reason Job is faithful is because God has protected and blessed him.

Anyway....

What do you do--since you suggest Satan can't act as an agent of God--with the passage in, Samuel, I think, that says God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul? I'm not suggesting that the Samuel text says Satan himself was sent, but I'm seriously doubting it was an angel.

It seems the Habakkuk passage is using language typical of the Prophets, but it isn't referencing the "supernatural" world, only the natural world. So, in other words, I'm suggesting that the Habakkuk passage cannot serve as an over-arching understanding since the context of the Habakkuk passage is a nation's and a prophet's misunderstanding of the what and why of God's actions. Having preached through Malachi recently, we see this "misunderstanding" is at an epidemic level in the prophets. Now, I'm not suggesting that the statement at the beginning of v. 13 is a misunderstanding of God's nature. What I'm suggesting is that this true statement of God's nature by Habakkuk is being applied to what God is up to--bringing judgment, using pagan nations as His agent.

And, why would you not read those passages of Job literally? If we were to hold your presupposition about evil in God's presence, why would Satan be able to personally tempt Christ? Satan was, obviously, in the presence of God there. If the fallen angels cannot enter heaven, why is there a "war" in heaven in Revelation 12? Of course, the language of Revelation is more pictorial, but if the fallen can't go there, why would there be a war there?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

I disagree with the "redneck" on occasion but I don't believe he would support "sbm's" contention that:

Not unless he says so!

Where does He say its not so ? I have given enough scripture that states God had a Eternal Purpose centered in Jesus Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

So where does it say its not so ?

 

[OldRegular]

I would suggest that you're presupposing that Satan is the "source of all evil" and that is, perhaps, contributing to your interpretation of the passage being, IMO, a bit skewed.

First, I'm not aware of Satan being called "the source of all evil" in Scripture. It may be there, but I don't recall a specific statement.

If Satan isn't the source or originator of evil, who is?

 

[OldRegular]

Romans 16:27

To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

This world was Created for an Redemptive Purpose founded in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ saving sinners ! Thats why the earth was brought into being, that Jesus Christ would one day utter these words Jn 19:30

Utter blasphemous nonsense. You are making God the originator of evil and the author of Sin.

 

[OldRegular]

Satan is always under a divine leash, as he can only do as God permits him to do, but it is due to his very nature that God allows him limited freedom for His divine purposes at this present time, but the Dog shall be fully gaged and bound once Jesus returns!

For at that point in history, again this world shall be under the direct ruling of the Lord...

There is a world of difference in being under the Divine leash and being an agent of God!.

 

[savedbymercy]

Utter blasphemous nonsense. You are making God the originator of evil and the author of Sin.

Could you please review the entire post with us, point by point as I gave it ! and explain why this world being made for the Eternal Purpose of Christ is nonsense, because that sounds blasphemous to me !Thanks !

 

[OldRegular]

Could you please review the entire post with us, point by point as I gave it ! and explain why this world being made for the Eternal Purpose of Christ is nonsense, because that sounds blasphemous to me !Thanks !

You might try responding to my following accusation:

You are making God the originator of evil and the author of Sin.

I have on more than one occasion expressed my opinion of this thread and you. I would not waste my time responding to the nonsense you present and your blasphemous interpretation of Scripture. You might consider the following Scripture and learn:

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[kyredneck]

It might be an invention of the one who posted it; but kyredneck is doing his best to support/defend it....

???

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. Ps 139:6

Answer the 'whodunits' in posts 33 & 35 if you dare...

 

[The Archangel]

If Satan isn't the source or originator of evil, who is?

This is an excellent question--one that will not likely be settled in this post or thread, since it has rage for millennia.

I am of the camp that thinks sin is the absence of something. Some have described this, for example, by saying: There is no such thing as darkness. Darkness is the absence of light. So, in this sense, darkness is a natural consequence of the absence of light.

Sin is the absence of obedience. This is why, for example, sin is by it's very nature rebellion against God. Evil really isn't distinguishable in this sense from sin.

Philosophically, though, if "Evil" or "Sin" is it's own thing (ie. not the natural consequence of the absence of something) then--again, philosophically--you would have to postulate that God created sin and evil and that they were "very good." This is, essentially, the position that savedbymercy is taking.

Edited to add: And, I should add, that there is a vast difference between "creating" sin or evil and "ordaining" sin or evil. Clearly God ordains that sin and evil enter the world. But, in his ordinance that these things be, He doesn't create them.

So, when one becomes "marked" by sinful rebellion against a holy God, that person (or angel) is evil. When we commit one act of rebellion against God, we become marked as rebellious sinners who "desire only evil continually." We are marked as such because every sin is an act of self-idolatry in which we de-throne God and enthrone ourselves. When Adam sinned, he condemned his progeny to be marked as he was. It is as if his "DNA" (for lack of a better term) was re-written and sinful rebellion was passed to every one of us.

I think your question should be answered: The source of sin and evil is rebellion against God.

That is not it's own thing; it is the result of not following God, not worshiping Him as God, exchanging the truth of God for a lie, etc.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

old reg

You might try responding to my following accusation:

Thats the problem, your accusation is not founded upon nothing but your accusation, wheras you are continually is evasion of scripture.

Now again, this World was Created in an Eternal Purpose centered in Christ Jesus, scripture indicates the same Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[OldRegular]

And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chron 21:1

4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

Neither of the above Scripture establish the validity of the blasphemous OP. If you think so then show how and make God the author of evil!

 

[OldRegular]

This is an excellent question--one that will not likely be settled in this post or thread, since it has rage for millennia.

I am of the camp that thinks sin is the absence of something. Some have described this, for example, by saying: There is no such thing as darkness. Darkness is the absence of light. So, in this sense, darkness is a natural consequence of the absence of light.

Sin is the absence of obedience. This is why, for example, sin is by it's very nature rebellion against God. Evil really isn't distinguishable in this sense from sin.

Philosophically, though, if "Evil" or "Sin" is it's own thing (ie. not the natural consequence of the absence of something) then--again, philosophically--you would have to postulate that God created sin and evil and that they were "very good." This is, essentially, the position that savedbymercy is taking.

Edited to add: And, I should add, that there is a vast difference between "creating" sin or evil and "ordaining" sin or evil. Clearly God ordains that sin and evil enter the world. But, in his ordinance that these things be, He doesn't create them.

So, when one becomes "marked" by sinful rebellion against a holy God, that person (or angel) is evil. When we commit one act of rebellion against God, we become marked as rebellious sinners who "desire only evil continually." We are marked as such because every sin is an act of self-idolatry in which we de-throne God and enthrone ourselves. When Adam sinned, he condemned his progeny to be marked as he was. It is as if his "DNA" (for lack of a better term) was re-written and sinful rebellion was passed to every one of us.

I think your question should be answered: The source of sin and evil is rebellion against God.

That is not it's own thing; it is the result of not following God, not worshiping Him as God, exchanging the truth of God for a lie, etc.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Using your logic above one could conclude that Satan does not exist. Is that what you are saying?

 

[OldRegular]

old reg



Thats the problem, your accusation is not founded upon nothing but your accusation, wheras you are continually is evasion of scripture.

Now again, this World was Created in an Eternal Purpose centered in Christ Jesus, scripture indicates the same Eph 3:9-11.

You are falsely using Scripture in an attempt to make God the originator of evil and the Author of sin.

 

[The Archangel]

Using your logic above one could conclude that Satan does not exist. Is that what you are saying?

No, I'm not saying that at all.

However, it isn't proper to say that Satan exists because there is evil in the world. Or, to pot it another way, evil doesn't prove the existence of Satan.

The scripture clearly tells of Satan and Scripture clearly tells of evil. I don't know that it equates them as equals.

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

the originating cause of all evil, to include moral evil, is the will , purpose, or predetermined counsel of God !

That is the worst piece of blasphemous garbage that I have ever read! It is completely contrary to the nature of God revealed in the Bible!

 

[plain_n_simple]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

That is the worst piece of blasphemous garbage that I have ever read! It is completely contrary to the nature of God revealed in the Bible!