Featured A Question for Calvinust here (Part 2)

Since you cannot be truthful I will expose your sad case now...

Here is the sequence Steaver...the original statement

 

Being a calvinist or not does not save ANY sinner, as that is the work of God do extend His grace and mercies towards those of us who receive Jesus by and thru faith!

And yes, Wesley and Spurgeon are both there right now worshipping the same lord who saved both of them, and BOTH of them now know just how ignorant of the real and full truth BOTH of them were!

 

How bout this here one Steve?

John 20:27, Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

I am curious, "What do you make of that?"

 

The way you are trying to "solve the problem" exposed for Calvinism -- is more than a little "instructive" for all of us -

Not entirely unexpected.


in Christ,

Bob

 

Christian Debate Forums (All Christians)

It may be that some read that as "Baptists only" but I dare say that it is not "all" of us that view it that way.

 

The default mode of the human heart is self-justification. Even Christians have some degree of this serious problem. The "Doctrines of Grace" don't sit well with folks (including myself, for 20 years) who are, knowingly or unknowingly, resting in something other than Christ's work for their justification. This is at the heart of the matter. This is the answer to your question regarding why people don't embrace Calvinism.

The "cure" for Arminism and Pelagianism (which most people are by default) is the Law of God in all its power and fulness. Knowledge of God (His holiness) and knowledge of self (our vile sinfulness) is what's needed to shake the foundations of self-salvation we (yes. even Christians) have trusted in.

When we stop kidding ourselves about both our condition and God's holiness, then, and only then, will we see that we were utterly incapable of coming to Christ, but that He came and saved us.

He is the only seeker (Luke 19:10). We are hiding (Gen 3:8)

 

If they do not believe because God failed to do something - then God is the cause of His own "lament" regarding that fact. #1

4 and 5 pt Calvinism cannot escape it, except by avoiding the entire discussion on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

Calvinists do not believe that people fail to believe because God has failed to do something. Unbelief is the fault of sinful mankind, not God. "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." John 3:19

Brian

 

Steve,

I would have to give that more thought to give an answer from scripture, but in my personal experience that's exactly what happened. After years of railing against it, I became convinced of TULIP in a supernatural way. I went from being dead set against it (even to the point of rage) to fully embracing it without effort. Of course, I've spent much time, study and conversation thinking it through after that point, but it was like a switch just flipped one day.

Brian

 

Exactly......:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:

 

steaver

Not at all S

I hope they will, but you like DHK skip all around.Most are not going to skip through 3 threads to see what you are trying to do S.

We both know what you are doing,Don't we

Your failure to respond is what causes a problem. I feel that if you respond in a timely manner it will keep you from falsehoods.
of course it is my pride and arrogance right steaver...it is not you being juvenile....no ..can't be.

I want to deal direct.....you seem to be quite unable to. I am not going back and unraveling your twisting of what is posted. You want to put your big boy pants on and give it a try??


Here you go;

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,

and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.


God is here hiding truth from some religious people, and then revealing the truth unto Babe"s.

The wise and prudent...no divine enablement, ie they could not understand it with a God given understanding.

The babes....had Divine enablement.....to grasp the truth savingly. They must have the Holy Spirit opening it to their understanding...

Do you agree or Not?

 

You may have misunderstood me, Steve.

First, no one was trying to sway me. When I say that I railed against it, it was from my own looking into the subject, which is completely natural because this question has come up in every thinking person's life. I'm a thinker, so the puzzle of who is saved or not and why bothered me, as it does many.

Without knowing the term, I was already a Palegian, so I needed no outside influence to stay one; however, I wanted to understand the other side, so I went to Sproul's Chosen By God. After a few minutes of listened to the CD I yanked it out of the CD player and threw it against the wall. There were some other articles I read very sporadically, but with the same result. The Calvinist position seemed almost demonic to me, but several years later I woke up a Calvinist, and I am eternally grateful that I have.

Second, I did not say that God showed me. I said that I fully believed it. One day I could not and would not believe it, and the next I did, and I gladly did, as it at last made sense of the scripture.

Lastly, I believe with my mind, not my gut. I'm no Charismatic - far from it. I heard no voice. I was simply able to comprehend what I could not prior.

 

Certainly we can find examples of people making bad choices.

Do you believe regeneration precedes the choice of the sinner to accept Christ as his Savior? Do you think that 4 and 5 point Calvinists believe in that?
Those that do believe in it - do not think the sinner can come to Christ any other way.

Steaver's post is in regard to a very specific point in 4 and 5 point calvinism.

Which is devastating when you look at "God's Lament" where HE Himself asks the question "What more could I have DONE" -- it does not say "what more could you (lost sinner) have done".

 

Bob, yes, I do believe that God must regenerate a man if that man is to believe. That is very clear to me, and I'm sure you know the proof texts, so I won't list them.

I understand your question a bit better now, and there is a good answer for it. The answer is: Christ. "What more could I have done?" is answered this way: I can send my Son as a child to live a perfect life on behalf of them. In their place He will live and fulfill all righteousness, and in their place He will die a death that they deserve.

The OT is an exhaustive history lesson that proves Calvin's points are an accurate summery of biblical truths. The history of the nation is Israel shows that there is no other way for men to be redeemed. Every method they tried fell short. God's law, His prophets, His Kings, the peoples various leaders, and the multitude of other things could never change the heart of man. They, and we, could not obey. They, and we, could not keep the covenant with God. He cannot be reformed. Moral reform is impossible. The history of the OT plainly demonstrates that.

The heart of man is not changed, as in moral reform, it is made new as in rebirth. Man cannot be made better, he must be "born again". The Good News is that Christ, by His life and death, has fulfilled the demands of the law for us. Praise be to God!

Side question for you, Bob. How are you not bothered by God calling the nation of Israel His "Chosen People" in the OT but you are in the NT? For thousands of years God not only ignored, but commanded Israel to destroy other people groups.