A Question for Calvinust here (Part 2)

[steaver]

Steaver posted.....Are you attempting to school me from the Scriptures that your declarations about those who do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP are not saved??

steaver
Post where I said that and if you cannot...repent of violating the 9th commandment.

Steaver posted.....With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God?

Icon's direct response...reposted my original quote...then gave his direct response to my quote...

steaver

With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

No twisting by me, No misrepresentation, there it is clear as a bell, quote for quote...

Icon's answer to my comment about the Holy Spirit failing to teach TULIP to the children of God......."No... and he nicely bolded the "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep"

 

[Iconoclast]

Since you cannot be truthful I will expose your sad case now...

Here is the sequence Steaver...the original statement

DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a personone day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement[/QUOTE]
it takes a work of Divine enablement.....was my original statement

I stand by that Statement. I also stand by the fact that you suggested the Holy Spirit...fails...in a profane way

this was post 111 in the be careful thread...

Here is my initial response to you.....

steaver

Oh good grief! Do all Calvinist believe as you do Icon?

I am one person Steaver. I do not speak for any group. My views are within the camp however.

That we are all just puppets waiting for the Great Puppet Master to zap us into Christians and Calvinist?

I find this kind of comment profane. God is God steaver.
He does not have to check with you to get the Okay to do what He does.

The unbiblical puppet argument is just that unbiblical.

You are way off the deep end,

I am glad to some extent that you feel that way as you are in a badly confused state of mind.

[

B]I believe your fellow brothers and sisters in Calvinism would also agree that you have actually left Calvinism with your "Divine Enablement" doctrine.[/B]

okay....and I believe you have need to learn the biblical ...a,b c's to raise this issue...

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Can you see it now Steaver????...guess what salvation is also ...GIVEN...by Divine enablement...they go hand in h

My initial response does not say what you are trying to make it Steaver...so you are a liar. In this last post...your first statement was not in the original interaction

here in your previous post you add this first statement;

Quote:
Steaver posted.....Are you attempting to school me from the Scriptures that your declarations about those who do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP are not saved??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
steaver
Post where I said that and if you cannot...repent of violating the 9th commandment.

I was first addressing ...DIVINE ENABLEMENT....... not questioning everyones salvation as you twist it into...The goats in Jn 10 BELIEVED NOT...because they were not sheep is exactly what Jesus taught. I bolded that in black....My Sheep hear my voice....I bolded in red....no failure of the Holy Spirit as you suggest is there Steaver? There is Divine enablement for the sheep...not the goats...then I offered a handful of verses that all say the same thing which you are totally unable to respond to....

There are many professed Christians who deny the grace of God who are false professors and not Christians at all. There are many who proudly boast of being non cals today, who will be Cals before they die. We have seen several on here in the past year or two...there will be more also....By Divine enablement.

So you can stop being devious and answer the posts and show where you disagree..

steaver

Oh good grief! Do all Calvinist believe as you do Icon?

I am one person Steaver. I do not speak for any group. My views are within the camp however.

That we are all just puppets waiting for the Great Puppet Master to zap us into Christians and Calvinist?

I find this kind of comment profane. God is God steaver.
He does not have to check with you to get the Okay to do what He does.

The unbiblical puppet argument is just that unbiblical.
Quote:
You are way off the deep end,
I am glad to some extent that you feel that way as you are in a badly confused state of mind.
Quote:
I believe your fellow brothers and sisters in Calvinism would also agree that you have actually left Calvinism with your "Divine Enablement" doctrine.
okay....and I believe you have need to learn the biblical ...a,b c's to raise this issue...

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Can you see it now Steaver????...guess what salvation is also ...GIVEN...by Divine enablement...they go hand in h

 

[Yeshua1]

Icon's direct response...reposted my original quote...then gave his direct response to my quote...



No twisting by me, No misrepresentation, there it is clear as a bell, quote for quote...

Icon's answer to my comment about the Holy Spirit failing to teach TULIP to the children of God......."No... and he nicely bolded the "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep"

Being a calvinist or not does not save ANY sinner, as that is the work of God do extend His grace and mercies towards those of us who receive Jesus by and thru faith!

And yes, Wesley and Spurgeon are both there right now worshipping the same lord who saved both of them, and BOTH of them now know just how ignorant of the real and full truth BOTH of them were!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Icon's answer to my comment about the Holy Spirit failing to teach TULIP to the children of God......."No... and he nicely bolded the "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep"

How bout this here one Steve?

John 20:27, Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

I am curious, "What do you make of that?"

 

[steaver]

Since you cannot be truthful I will expose your sad case now...

Here is the sequence Steaver...the original statement

Brother Icon, you have a huge problem hampering your argument. Folks can read your exact comments directed towards my exact comments. I posted them word for word, quote for quote. You stomping your feet and calling me a liar is only a reflection upon your own pride or arrogance, I'm not sure which.

Do you really want to begin with the original comments which has set the precedent for evaluating all of your subsequent post thereafter? Let's lay them out...

12-12-14. The very first comments which has set the precedent for the issue at hand which has been ongoing through three different threads now....

Quote: Steaver...
With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God

Quote: Icon...
No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Above are the very first comments, mine and yours, word for word, unedited. You have since confirmed at least three times that you stand by your original comments. Where does that leave all of us to believe about your beliefs concerning the salvation of those who do not embrace TULIP/Calvinism???

If the foundation is faulty, the rest of the building will be faulty. Here is your chance to change your foundation and change this conversation. Do you want to declare your answer towards my original comment is wrong, that you misused John 10? If not, then what else are we all to believe about your beliefs concerning those who do not embrace Calvinism? Let's deal with your original answer to my original comment, and then we can discuss the other issues you raise. Pray about it...

 

[steaver]

How bout this here one Steve?

John 20:27, Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

I am curious, "What do you make of that?"

I believe Jesus confirmed Calvinism to be true when He said then to Thomas....

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast been given the Holy Spirit you believe: blessed are they that have not seen Me, and yet have been given the Holy Spirit to believe.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a person one day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement.

The person that posts such a view - must logically conclude that no Arminian here is exposing the flaws in Calvinism simply because they 'choose to do so' but rather God is causing that born again saved Arminian to expose each flaw in Calvinism as it is exposed in scripture to be flawed.

Certainly I as an Arminian would agree that God is directing the Arminian in that effort - and so to at least some extent - I would agree with such a Calvinist.

What I don't understand - is why such a Calvinist would of their own free will debate such an Arminian when they and I both know that they are debating against the will of God in such a case, since we both agree that God has actually ordained that the Arminian should expose the flaws in Calvinism just as they are doing and the Calvinist goes even farther by insisting that the Arminian has no other choice but to do so.

This is the baptist section of the board...you are sda correct?

The way you are trying to "solve the problem" exposed for Calvinism -- is more than a little "instructive" for all of us -

Not entirely unexpected.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Other christian denominations is for non baptists from what I understand.:wavey:

Christian Debate Forums (All Christians)

It may be that some read that as "Baptists only" but I dare say that it is not "all" of us that view it that way.

 

[thatbrian]

The default mode of the human heart is self-justification. Even Christians have some degree of this serious problem. The "Doctrines of Grace" don't sit well with folks (including myself, for 20 years) who are, knowingly or unknowingly, resting in something other than Christ's work for their justification. This is at the heart of the matter. This is the answer to your question regarding why people don't embrace Calvinism.

The "cure" for Arminism and Pelagianism (which most people are by default) is the Law of God in all its power and fulness. Knowledge of God (His holiness) and knowledge of self (our vile sinfulness) is what's needed to shake the foundations of self-salvation we (yes. even Christians) have trusted in.

When we stop kidding ourselves about both our condition and God's holiness, then, and only then, will we see that we were utterly incapable of coming to Christ, but that He came and saved us.

He is the only seeker (Luke 19:10). We are hiding (Gen 3:8)

 

[steaver]

The default mode of the human heart is self-justification. Even Christians have some degree of this serious problem. The "Doctrines of Grace" don't sit well with folks (including myself, for 20 years) who are, knowingly or unknowingly, resting in something other than Christ's work for their justification. This is at the heart of the matter. This is the answer to your question regarding why people don't embrace Calvinism.

The "cure" for Arminism and Pelagianism (which most people are by default) is the Law of God in all its power and fulness. Knowledge of God (His holiness) and knowledge of self (our vile sinfulness) is what's needed to shake the foundations of self-salvation we (yes. even Christians) have trusted in.

When we stop kidding ourselves about both our condition and God's holiness, then, and only then, will we see that we were utterly incapable of coming to Christ, but that He came and saved us.

He is the only seeker (Luke 19:10). We are hiding (Gen 3:8)

Are you then disagreeing with brother Icon in the OP, that they do not believe because they have not been Divinely Enabled to believe, which he prof text with Matt 13....the unsaved.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you then disagreeing with brother Icon in the OP, that they do not believe because they have not been Divinely Enabled to believe, which he prof text with Matt 13....the unsaved.

If they do not believe because God failed to do something - then God is the cause of His own "lament" regarding that fact. #1

4 and 5 pt Calvinism cannot escape it, except by avoiding the entire discussion on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[thatbrian]

Bob,

Calvinists do not believe that people fail to believe because God has failed to do something. Unbelief is the fault of sinful mankind, not God. "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." John 3:19

Brian

If they do not believe because God failed to do something - then God is the cause of His own "lament" regarding that fact. #1

4 and 5 pt Calvinism cannot escape it, except by avoiding the entire discussion on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[thatbrian]

Are you then disagreeing with brother Icon in the OP, that they do not believe because they have not been Divinely Enabled to believe, which he prof text with Matt 13....the unsaved.

Steve,

I would have to give that more thought to give an answer from scripture, but in my personal experience that's exactly what happened. After years of railing against it, I became convinced of TULIP in a supernatural way. I went from being dead set against it (even to the point of rage) to fully embracing it without effort. Of course, I've spent much time, study and conversation thinking it through after that point, but it was like a switch just flipped one day.

Brian

 

[Iconoclast]

Steve,

I would have to give that more thought to give an answer from scripture, but in my personal experience that's exactly what happened. After years of railing against it, I became convinced of TULIP in a supernatural way. I went from being dead set against it (even to the point of rage) to fully embracing it without effort. Of course, I've spent much time, study and conversation thinking it through after that point, but it was like a switch just flipped one day.

Brian

Exactly......:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

Brother Icon, you have a huge problem hampering your argument.

Not at all S

Folks can read your exact comments directed towards my exact comments.

I hope they will, but you like DHK skip all around.Most are not going to skip through 3 threads to see what you are trying to do S.

I posted them word for word, quote for quote.

We both know what you are doing,Don't we

You stomping your feet and calling me a liar is only a reflection upon your own pride or arrogance, I'm not sure which.

Your failure to respond is what causes a problem. I feel that if you respond in a timely manner it will keep you from falsehoods.
of course it is my pride and arrogance right steaver...it is not you being juvenile....no ..can't be.

Do you really want to begin with the original comments which has set the precedent for evaluating all of your subsequent post thereafter? Let's lay them out...

I want to deal direct.....you seem to be quite unable to. I am not going back and unraveling your twisting of what is posted. You want to put your big boy pants on and give it a try??


Here you go;

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,

and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.


God is here hiding truth from some religious people, and then revealing the truth unto Babe"s.

The wise and prudent...no divine enablement, ie they could not understand it with a God given understanding.

The babes....had Divine enablement.....to grasp the truth savingly. They must have the Holy Spirit opening it to their understanding...

Do you agree or Not?

 

[steaver]

Steve,

I would have to give that more thought to give an answer from scripture, but in my personal experience that's exactly what happened. After years of railing against it, I became convinced of TULIP in a supernatural way. I went from being dead set against it (even to the point of rage) to fully embracing it without effort. Of course, I've spent much time, study and conversation thinking it through after that point, but it was like a switch just flipped one day.

Brian

I have a brother who has the same testimony concerning Millennial Exclusion. After years of resisting it from his pastor and all the men his pastor kept telling him to listen to about it, he said the exact same thing "it was like a switch going off". That was about 20 years ago and he cannot be swayed differently, he is 100% convinced he knows what he knows because God showed him. The way I see it, because he did not trust the Holy Spirit's many promptings that it was false for years, he was turned over to believe what his fleshly heart really wanted to do, believe his pastor was correct and please his pastor.

 

[thatbrian]

You may have misunderstood me, Steve.

First, no one was trying to sway me. When I say that I railed against it, it was from my own looking into the subject, which is completely natural because this question has come up in every thinking person's life. I'm a thinker, so the puzzle of who is saved or not and why bothered me, as it does many.

Without knowing the term, I was already a Palegian, so I needed no outside influence to stay one; however, I wanted to understand the other side, so I went to Sproul's Chosen By God. After a few minutes of listened to the CD I yanked it out of the CD player and threw it against the wall. There were some other articles I read very sporadically, but with the same result. The Calvinist position seemed almost demonic to me, but several years later I woke up a Calvinist, and I am eternally grateful that I have.

Second, I did not say that God showed me. I said that I fully believed it. One day I could not and would not believe it, and the next I did, and I gladly did, as it at last made sense of the scripture.

Lastly, I believe with my mind, not my gut. I'm no Charismatic - far from it. I heard no voice. I was simply able to comprehend what I could not prior.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you then disagreeing with brother Icon in the OP, that they do not believe because they have not been Divinely Enabled to believe, which he prof text with Matt 13....the unsaved.

If they do not believe because God failed to do something - then God is the cause of His own "lament" regarding that fact. #1

4 and 5 pt Calvinism cannot escape it, except by avoiding the entire discussion on that point.

Bob,

Calvinists do not believe that people fail to believe because God has failed to do something. Unbelief is the fault of sinful mankind, not God. "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." John 3:19

Brian

Certainly we can find examples of people making bad choices.

Do you believe regeneration precedes the choice of the sinner to accept Christ as his Savior? Do you think that 4 and 5 point Calvinists believe in that?
Those that do believe in it - do not think the sinner can come to Christ any other way.

Steaver's post is in regard to a very specific point in 4 and 5 point calvinism.

Which is devastating when you look at "God's Lament" where HE Himself asks the question "What more could I have DONE" -- it does not say "what more could you (lost sinner) have done".

[FONT=&quot]God's Lament
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[thatbrian]

Bob, yes, I do believe that God must regenerate a man if that man is to believe. That is very clear to me, and I'm sure you know the proof texts, so I won't list them.

I understand your question a bit better now, and there is a good answer for it. The answer is: Christ. "What more could I have done?" is answered this way: I can send my Son as a child to live a perfect life on behalf of them. In their place He will live and fulfill all righteousness, and in their place He will die a death that they deserve.

The OT is an exhaustive history lesson that proves Calvin's points are an accurate summery of biblical truths. The history of the nation is Israel shows that there is no other way for men to be redeemed. Every method they tried fell short. God's law, His prophets, His Kings, the peoples various leaders, and the multitude of other things could never change the heart of man. They, and we, could not obey. They, and we, could not keep the covenant with God. He cannot be reformed. Moral reform is impossible. The history of the OT plainly demonstrates that.

The heart of man is not changed, as in moral reform, it is made new as in rebirth. Man cannot be made better, he must be "born again". The Good News is that Christ, by His life and death, has fulfilled the demands of the law for us. Praise be to God!

Side question for you, Bob. How are you not bothered by God calling the nation of Israel His "Chosen People" in the OT but you are in the NT? For thousands of years God not only ignored, but commanded Israel to destroy other people groups.

 

[steaver]

I am not going back and unraveling your twisting of what is posted. You want to put your big boy pants on and give it a try??

You keep claiming this as if repeating it over and over somehow makes folks believe it. I posted word for word, quote for quote. No twisting, nothing to unravel. You said what you said brother, no belief in TULIP, no sheep. This is settled, the question now is, why don't all Calvinist agree with you?? They should if you are correct, otherwise, they are not saved either!!! According to your pov of course....