What OT passages suggest that ALL OT believrs had the Holy Spirit JUST as we have Him

[HankD]

Hi Hank, you are conflating the expectation that teachers of the Old Testament would know you have to be born anew, which is taught in scripture, with the idea that they had received that rebirth in the past.

However, they had to wait to be made perfect, thus none had been reborn, and none had entered heaven.

You said you agreed with Biblicist that OT saints had been born anew,
because if "pure of heart" is preceded by a definite article, that means they were born anew. This is hogwash. It simply takes an obscure phrase and redefines its meaning to support the view. Eisegesis.

If you are claiming that the Spirit never left OT Saints and only "waned" again, that argument simply redefines departed. Consider the OT King Saul, and what happened to him. (1 Sam. 16:14)

But how could Nicodemus understand ANYTHING, even the concept of the rebirth had he himself not experienced it. Jesus spoke to him in the present tense.

I had a seminary friend in Bible College and we both questioned if the Spirit actually "left" the OT saints (we both believed OT saint regeneration).
He wrote a paper on the word adokimos :

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (adokimos).

So, even in NT times where we have the indisputable indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit it is apparently possible that the presence of the Spirit can be diminished through becoming so grieved as to have very little influence in the believers life.

Something within Samson moved him to pray.
My belief is that the Spirit never left him but that he had become adokimos.

Saul ?? who knows?

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

Hi Hank, you are conflating the expectation that teachers of the Old Testament would know you have to be born anew, which is taught in scripture, with the idea that they had received that rebirth in the past.

However, they had to wait to be made perfect, thus none had been reborn, and none had entered heaven.

You said you agreed with Biblicist that OT saints had been born anew,
because if "pure of heart" is preceded by a definite article, that means they were born anew. This is hogwash. It simply takes an obscure phrase and redefines its meaning to support the view. Eisegesis.

If you are claiming that the Spirit never left OT Saints and only "waned" again, that argument simply redefines departed. Consider the OT King Saul, and what happened to him. (1 Sam. 16:14)

In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. - Ezek. 44:7

1. They are being accused by God that they "HAVE" brought into my sanctuary not mere uncircumsized in flesh but "uncircumcised in heart" proving that the new birth was known and they were being held accountable for PAST ACTIONS of allowing it, thus necessarily understanding what it is to be "uncircumcised in heart". How could they "have" known they allowed such? The very same way the unregnerate are known by the works of the flesh today from the regenerated who possess the fruit of the Spirit

2. Ezekiel did not respond like Nicodemus that he did not know what God was speaking about - proving he knew what it meant. Thus if Ezekiel understood it, Nicodemus a "master" of Israel in regard to the law should also known as it is spelled out in black and white by Ezekiel.

3. Ezekiel not only predicted the future salvation of Israel as a NATION by new birth or circumcision of heart (Ezek. 36:26-24; Jer. 31:33-34) but taught the INDIVDUAL circumcision of heart the heart LONG BEFORE Nicodemus lived.

4. The definite artice before "righteous" does refer to the regenerate people of God who are circumcised in heart and it is consistently contrasted to those who are called "wicked" but with the definite article also preceding them as the unregenerate class.

Justification is IMPOSSIBLE without regeneration as God cannot justify anyone existing in spiritual separation from God who IS life, and who IS light and who IS righteousness, as such a person by nature is ALIENATED FROM THE LIFE OF GOD and thus unrighteous in character (Eph. 4:18-19).

 

[Van]

But how could Nicodemus understand ANYTHING, even the concept of the rebirth had he himself not experienced it. Jesus spoke to him in the present tense.

Again, your premise, you must be reborn to understand the need to be spiritually reborn is without foundation.

I had a seminary friend in Bible College and we both questioned if the Spirit actually "left" the OT saints (we both believed OT saint regeneration).
He wrote a paper on the word adokimos :

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (adokimos).

So, even in NT times where we have the indisputable indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit it is apparently possible that the presence of the Spirit can be diminished through becoming so grieved as to have very little influence in the believers life.

Again, the fact that NT indwelling can be quenched, does not support that OT interaction could not be terminated.

Something within Samson moved him to pray.
My belief is that the Spirit never left him but that he had become adokimos.

Saul ?? who knows?

HankD

Again, you can redefine words to support your view, or you can accept what it says. The Hebrew word (H5493)at 1 Sam. 16:14 means to depart from someone.

 

[Jedi Knight]

They wondered what time or situation the "Spirit of Christ within them" was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ's suffering and his great glory afterward. 1 Peter 1:11 Case solved!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, indisputable evidence that the new birth was understood and expected long before the cross.

In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. - Ezek. 44:7

1. They are being accused by God that they "HAVE" brought into my sanctuary not mere uncircumsized in flesh but "uncircumcised in heart" proving that the new birth was known and they were being held accountable for PAST ACTIONS of allowing it, thus necessarily understanding what it is to be "uncircumcised in heart". How could they "have" known they allowed such? The very same way the unregnerate are known by the works of the flesh today from the regenerated who possess the fruit of the Spirit

2. Ezekiel did not respond like Nicodemus that he did not know what God was speaking about - proving he knew what it meant. Thus if Ezekiel understood it, Nicodemus a "master" of Israel in regard to the law should also known as it is spelled out in black and white by Ezekiel.

3. Ezekiel not only predicted the future salvation of Israel as a NATION by new birth or circumcision of heart (Ezek. 36:26-24; Jer. 31:33-34) but taught the INDIVDUAL circumcision of heart the heart LONG BEFORE Nicodemus lived.

4. The definite artice before "righteous" does refer to the regenerate people of God who are circumcised in heart and it is consistently contrasted to those who are called "wicked" but with the definite article also preceding them as the unregenerate class.

Justification is IMPOSSIBLE without regeneration as God cannot justify anyone existing in spiritual separation from God who IS life, and who IS light and who IS righteousness, as such a person by nature is ALIENATED FROM THE LIFE OF GOD and thus unrighteous in character (Eph. 4:18-19).

 

[Jedi Knight]

Again, indisputable evidence that the new birth was understood and expected long before the cross.

:applause: Amen!

 

[HankD]

Again, your premise, you must be reborn to understand the need to be spiritually reborn is without foundation.
Again, the fact that NT indwelling can be quenched, does not support that OT interaction could not be terminated.

Again, you can redefine words to support your view, or you can accept what it says. The Hebrew word (H5493)at 1 Sam. 16:14 means to depart from someone.

Yes it can but it has a wider scope than the English word "depart" and therefore is not a redefinition of the word but simply the stating of a legitimate variant of the meaning of the word.

e.g.
Genesis 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

And many many other places the King James varies the translation of the root word (SUR) as its basic meaning which signifies a change of position with no nuance of return or non-return which, if possible, is determined by the context.

HankD

 

[Van]

H5493 does indeed have a range of meanings, but your redefinition is not among them. The Holy Spirit relocated from Saul and the cover was relocated by Noah. Nowhere do we find, "remained in a diminished capacity" i.e. quenched.

I found no support for your view in any translation, or Lexicon. I found "departed" in nearly all translations, with two saying left, and one each turned aside and turned away.

 

[HankD]

H5493 does indeed have a range of meanings, but your redefinition is not among them. The Holy Spirit relocated from Saul and the cover was relocated by Noah. Nowhere do we find, "remained in a diminished capacity" i.e. quenched.

I found no support for your view in any translation, or Lexicon. I found "departed" in nearly all translations, with two saying left, and one each turned aside and turned away.

There is more to it than that Van. Hebrew is a Semitic language and difficult to deal with when it comes to prepositional phrases.
e.g.There is no "past or present tense" (just perfect and imperfect) which definitely complicates matters, also prepositions are prefixed to their nouns and do not always have a predictable one-to-one relationship to either English or koine Greek. To put a distance between two things can be a "departure".

Genesis 30
35 And he removed that day the he goats that were ringstraked and spotted, and all the she goats that were speckled and spotted, and every one that had some white in it, and all the brown among the sheep, and gave them into the hand of his sons.
36 And he set three days' journey betwixt himself and Jacob: and Jacob fed the rest of Laban's flocks.

Again, the text is not concerned with certain facts concerning the covering Noah removed - like - was it attached by a rope or strap to keep it from "departing" in the wind, waves, etc because it is not a theological dissertation.

Hebrew is not a language given over to theological dissertations as is koine Greek. So I look at those NT facts concerning the Spirit in the OT and then think or rethink what was going on in the OT. The Spirit who indwelt at least the inspired writers of the OT (for instance) who were "moved" by Him but were also "In them".


HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

There is more to it than that Van. Hebrew is a Semitic language and difficult to deal with when it comes to prepositional phrases.
e.g.There is no "past or present tense" (just perfect and imperfect) which definitely complicates matters, also prepositions are prefixed to their nouns and do not always have a predictable one-to-one relationship to either English or koine Greek. To put a distance between two things can be a "departure".

Genesis 30
35 And he removed that day the he goats that were ringstraked and spotted, and all the she goats that were speckled and spotted, and every one that had some white in it, and all the brown among the sheep, and gave them into the hand of his sons.
36 And he set three days' journey betwixt himself and Jacob: and Jacob fed the rest of Laban's flocks.

Again, the text is not concerned with certain facts concerning the covering Noah removed - like - was it attached by a rope or strap to keep it from "departing" in the wind, waves, etc because it is not a theological dissertation.

Hebrew is not a language given over to theological dissertations as is koine Greek. So I look at those NT facts concerning the Spirit in the OT and then think or rethink what was going on in the OT. The Spirit who indwelt at least the inspired writers of the OT (for instance) who were "moved" by Him but were also "In them".


HankD

The Holy Spirit can "depart" from a person in different ways. He can depart from a person in regard to experiential fellowship. He can depart from someone in regard to power or special gifts that equip them to function in an office or position. In the Old Testament as in the New Testament God not only indwells a person due to spiritual union but equips them for a certain calling. When Moses needed help to rule Israel, God called 70 persons and equipped them with the spiritual gifts to help Moses Rule. When God call prophets he not only indwelt them in regard to individual spiritual union (salvation) but gifted them for the prophetic office. Even lost men were called by God for special tasks and equipped for that task by the Spirit of God (Cyrus)

Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Even the high priest that hated and rejected Christ was empowered by the Spirit of God for a specific task.

The same was true with Saul, he was called to a special office and equipped for it by God with a special anointing but when he sinned against God that special anointing departed, in addition to the experiential fellowship with God, and so God "departed" from Saul in more than one sense.

The same is true today

 

[Van]

Hebrew is considered more difficult than Greek, but none of the versions I looked at (translations and lexicons) had your definition. OTOH, essentially all of them had mine, departed, left, turned away. To point out the word has a range of meanings, does not allow any agenda driven meaning to be inserted in the name of "context."

The NT facts concerning the OT saints and the Holy Spirit, indicates the HS came upon, and were "in" the Saints. Never do we find "indwelling" as that occurred in the NT only. The HS departed from OT Saints, but in the NT, the indwelling is forever.

There is no support for the redefintion of H5493 to include "quenched."

No OT saint entered heaven before Christ died. No OT saint was made perfect before Christ died.

 

[The Biblicist]

In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. - Ezek. 44:7

1. They are being accused by God that they "HAVE" brought into my sanctuary not mere uncircumsized in flesh but "uncircumcised in heart" proving that the new birth was known and they were being held accountable for PAST ACTIONS of allowing it, thus necessarily understanding what it is to be "uncircumcised in heart". How could they "have" known they allowed such? The very same way the unregnerate are known by the works of the flesh today from the regenerated who possess the fruit of the Spirit

2. Ezekiel did not respond like Nicodemus that he did not know what God was speaking about - proving he knew what it meant. Thus if Ezekiel understood it, Nicodemus a "master" of Israel in regard to the law should also known as it is spelled out in black and white by Ezekiel.

3. Ezekiel not only predicted the future salvation of Israel as a NATION by new birth or circumcision of heart (Ezek. 36:26-24; Jer. 31:33-34) but taught the INDIVDUAL circumcision of heart the heart LONG BEFORE Nicodemus lived.

4. The definite artice before "righteous" does refer to the regenerate people of God who are circumcised in heart and it is consistently contrasted to those who are called "wicked" but with the definite article also preceding them as the unregenerate class.

Justification is IMPOSSIBLE without regeneration as God cannot justify anyone existing in spiritual separation from God who IS life, and who IS light and who IS righteousness, as such a person by nature is ALIENATED FROM THE LIFE OF GOD and thus unrighteous in character (Eph. 4:18-19).

Those who deny the indwelling of the Spirit prior to Pentecost are agenda driven because they have to EXPLAIN AWAY passages that explicitly state the "Spirit OF CHRIST" was in them (1 Pet. 1:11) and explicit statements found in the Old Testament of individuals that the Spirit of God was "in" them and that regeneration was understood and required (Ezek. 44:7 "have") just as Jesus told Nicodemus.

Moreover, the Spirit comes "UPON" saints in the New Testament as He did in the Old Testament for equipping or gifting and can leave or depart in the same sense without having any connection with indwelling.

Ac 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Notice the results are the prophetic gift not regeneration or indwelling. Unless you believe the gift of prophecy is inseparable from regeneration and indwelling??

.
Ac 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)


Again, in context it is manifest power that Simon wanted to purchase the ability to convey through laying his hands on others.

Ac 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

notice the manifest consequence was POWER speaking in tongues not spiritual union or indwelling unless you believe speaking in tongues and prophesying are inseparable from spiritual union and indwelling???

Ac 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Again, it is power manifested in spiritual gifts not indwelling or regeneration, unless you believe speaking in tongues is inseparable from regeneration and indwelling???


1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.


Moreover, spiritual union is essential to have spiritual life, light or righteousness, which all the pre-Pentecost saints did have and it is obvious they had because ALL before or after Pentecost that do not are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:7.

 

[Van]

Those that equate "in" with "abide in forever" are untethered from reality.
No one was sealed in Christ before Christ died.
No one entered heaven before Christ died.
No verse says any OT saint was regenerated before Christ died.

All the agenda driven folks have done is cite vague phrases that they define as meaning regeneration or rebirth. Anyone can make the bible say anything if you can redefine the meanings of words and phrases to suit an agenda.

If they had been reborn, regenerated, they would have been made perfect and entered heaven. When born anew people die under the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ, where do we go? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And where is the Lord? Why in heaven.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those who deny the indwelling of the Spirit prior to Pentecost are agenda driven because they have to EXPLAIN AWAY passages that explicitly state the "Spirit OF CHRIST" was in them (1 Pet. 1:11) and explicit statements found in the Old Testament of individuals that the Spirit of God was "in" them and that regeneration was understood and required (Ezek. 44:7 "have") just as Jesus told Nicodemus.

Moreover, the Spirit comes "UPON" saints in the New Testament as He did in the Old Testament for equipping or gifting and can leave or depart in the same sense without having any connection with indwelling.

Ac 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Notice the results are the prophetic gift not regeneration or indwelling. Unless you believe the gift of prophecy is inseparable from regeneration and indwelling??

.
Ac 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)


Again, in context it is manifest power that Simon wanted to purchase the ability to convey through laying his hands on others.

Ac 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

notice the manifest consequence was POWER speaking in tongues not spiritual union or indwelling unless you believe speaking in tongues and prophesying are inseparable from spiritual union and indwelling???

Ac 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Again, it is power manifested in spiritual gifts not indwelling or regeneration, unless you believe speaking in tongues is inseparable from regeneration and indwelling???


1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.


Moreover, spiritual union is essential to have spiritual life, light or righteousness, which all the pre-Pentecost saints did have and it is obvious they had because ALL before or after Pentecost that do not are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:7.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Tranfiguration BEFORE Pentecost and thus where Elijah went "INTO HEAVEN" so Moses also went as they both appeared together.

David went to Heaven:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


1. He is "CONTINUALLY WITH THEE"
2. Only two possible spheres are mentioned "in heaven" versus "upon earth."
3. Here on earth the Lord will "guide me" and "AFTERWARD receive me TO GLORY"

Only an agenda driven ideologist would deny this and he must EXPLAIN IT AWAY.

David explained his death as FLYING AWAY not GOING DOWNWARD:

Ps 55:6 And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I I fly away, and be at rest.


Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

When David considered the two most extremes there was only "heaven" and "hell" but no mention of any kind of Baptist/Catholic purgatory for the saved.

John 3:13 only denies any man has gone to heaven and come back to tell about heavenly things. Even after Pentecost Paul was caught up to the third heaven but was commanded not to reveal what he saw.

Those who deny spiritual union/sealing/indwelling/new birth prior to Pentecost do not even understand the baby essentials of salvation. The fall did not occur after Pentecost and neither did the salvation from the consequences of the fall begin after Pentecost. The problem of sin is INTERNAL (spiritual) and so is its solution and Biblical salvation begins internally and concludes external physical. The internal problem of sin is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God who is LIFE, who is LIGHT and who is RIGHTEOUSNESS. When Adam sinned, his spiritual condition was NO DIFFERENT than yours. The same solution to resolove his internal state of spiritual separation from God is the same for you. You must be brought into spiritual union with God (life/light/righteouensss) or you are still spiritually DEAD in spiritual DARKNESS and without spiritual RIGHTEOUSNESS. Spiritual indwelling is being made spiritually ALIVE and brought into spiritual LIGHT and having the moral image of God restored "righteousness and true holiness" internally. That spiritual union IS indwelling and the Spirit IS the seal of that union/life/light/righteousness.

Those who live in their little theological dream worlds, out of touch with reality ignore that indwelling sin is not a Post-Pentecost reality but the reality of the fall and the cause of spiritual separation from God/life/light/righteousness then and now. The only possible way that pre-Pentecost saints to be saints, to be righteous, to have spiritual enlightenment, to walk by faith (Heb. 11) is by reversal of their spiritual separation from God.

 

[HankD]

H5493 does indeed have a range of meanings, but your redefinition is not among them. The Holy Spirit relocated from Saul and the cover was relocated by Noah. Nowhere do we find, "remained in a diminished capacity" i.e. quenched.

I found no support for your view in any translation, or Lexicon. I found "departed" in nearly all translations, with two saying left, and one each turned aside and turned away.

Hebrew is considered more difficult than Greek, but none of the versions I looked at (translations and lexicons) had your definition. OTOH, essentially all of them had mine, departed, left, turned away. To point out the word has a range of meanings, does not allow any agenda driven meaning to be inserted in the name of "context."

The NT facts concerning the OT saints and the Holy Spirit, indicates the HS came upon, and were "in" the Saints. Never do we find "indwelling" as that occurred in the NT only. The HS departed from OT Saints, but in the NT, the indwelling is forever.

There is no support for the redefintion of H5493 to include "quenched."

No OT saint entered heaven before Christ died. No OT saint was made perfect before Christ died.

Van, I don't see it as "agenda driven", though I would admit that I am probably not the best judge of my inner cogitations as we all have difficulties in that area.

If I am "agenda driven" then we are all agenda driven in any subject wherein we disagree.

I will admit that my view is a minority view (as far as I know ) but I am not alone.

As for SUR - [Samech-holem-Resh] (Depart, turn aside, remove) in the Hebrew it exists 301 times in 284 verses. It is one word of several for which a relationship of God is expressed including a departure (either way, man departs from God or vice versa). IMO SUR does not necessarily mean total abandonment.

My feeling is that it corresponds to the NT koine word adokimos (unfit, unworthy) or translated "castaway" in the AV.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

IMO, Samson and Saul were "castaways" for the time that they were powerless (yes I believe Saul was saved but then again so was David who shed the blood of Uriah). Where was God in His relationship with them? At very least He had 'hid His face" from them.

No OT saint entered heaven before Christ died. No OT saint was made perfect before Christ died.

Which heaven? One day in theology class about 40 years ago we had a discussion: Where is heaven the dwelling place of God wherein He has spent eternity? It must of necessity be uncreated. This alone boggles the mind.

Picture the shadow of it - The tabernacle in the wilderness later to become the Temple in Jerusalem.

Remember, I never said I agreed 100% that they (regenerated OT saints) had exactly the same position as we.

IMO, this is one of the differences, the spirits of the regenerated OT saints did not have access to the actual Holy of Holies. You and I and now the Jewish believers have full authority to come boldly in before the throne of grace both the wall of partition being torn down and the veil being rend.

So in the shadow of the reality the spirits of the regenerated OT saints were indeed in Abraham's Bosom (within the wall of partition but outside the Holy of Holies) awaiting Messiah's arrival to open heaven's door.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jew, Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Hebrews 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

If only we all (myself included) fully realized what we have because of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ our great God and Savior.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

Van, I don't see it as "agenda driven", though I would admit that I am probably not the best judge of my inner cogitations as we all have difficulties in that area.

If I am "agenda driven" then we are all agenda driven in any subject wherein we disagree.

I will admit that my view is a minority view (as far as I know ) but I am not alone.

As for SUR - [Samech-holem-Resh] (Depart, turn aside, remove) in the Hebrew it exists 301 times in 284 verses. It is one word of several for which a relationship of God is expressed including a departure (either way, man departs from God or vice versa). IMO SUR does not necessarily mean total abandonment.

My feeling is that it corresponds to the NT koine word adokimos (unfit, unworthy) or translated "castaway" in the AV.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

IMO, Samson and Saul were "castaways" for the time that they were powerless (yes I believe Saul was saved but then again so was David who shed the blood of Uriah). Where was God in His relationship with them? At very least He had 'hid His face" from them.

Which heaven? One day in theology class about 40 years ago we had a discussion: Where is heaven the dwelling place of God wherein He has spent eternity? It must of necessity be uncreated. This alone boggles the mind.

Picture the shadow of it - The tabernacle in the wilderness later to become the Temple in Jerusalem.

Remember, I never said I agreed 100% that they (regenerated OT saints) had exactly the same position as we.

IMO, this is one of the differences, the spirits of the regenerated OT saints did not have access to the actual Holy of Holies. You and I and now the Jewish believers have full authority to come boldly in before the throne of grace both the wall of partition being torn down and the veil being rend.

So in the shadow of the reality the spirits of the regenerated OT saints were indeed in Abraham's Bosom (within the wall of partition but outside the Holy of Holies) awaiting Messiah's arrival to open heaven's door.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jew, Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Hebrews 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

If only we all (myself included) fully realized what we have because of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ our great God and Savior.

HankD

The issue is very simple. What is spiritual death? Define that and the solution for it is equally defined. If spiritual death is in fact spiritual separation from God who IS life and who IS light and who IS righteousness then, regardless if we are talking about Abel or Van the problem is the same and the solution must be the same. For example, look at how Paul defines the past unregenerate state of the Ephesians that can only be explained by spiritual separation from God as Life, as light and as righteousness:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

The solution is spiritual reunion with God as LIGHT ["darkened...blindness"]and as LIFE ["alienated from the life of God"] and as RIGHTEOUSNESS ["all uncleaness"]

All human beings are either in spiritual union with life/light/righteousness or they are not. The act of creating that spiritual union is quickening/regeneration/born again. That STATE of being in spiritual "union" IS indwelling because spiritual UNION does not exist without the actual abiding presence of the Spirit in UNION with our spirits. The Spirit IS the seal of this union.

The very essence of the lost condition and the very essence of salvation is found in spiritual separation or spiritual union with God and there is no other possible solution for spiritual separation than spiritual union.

To deny or explain away either is to enter into a state of mind that is theologically oxymoronic.

 

[HankD]

Only the high priest could go into the Holy of Holies which prefigured Christ.
The wall of partition was for the Gentiles. They could not go beyond it under penalty of death.

I am not denying the regenerational union of man and God before the cross just that it was different, incomplete perhaps.

The koine language is a language which is comfortable with theological concepts.

There is no past or future tense in Hebrew, however in koine we have the following passages one with a past tense, one with a future tense:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

Only the high priest could go into the Holy of Holies which prefigured Christ.
The wall of partition was for the Gentiles. They could not go beyond it under penalty of death.

You are confusing the provision of salvation with the application of salvation. If your view were correct then there could be no application of remission of sins prior to the cross but there clearly was (Acts 10:43; Rom. 4:6-8). The atonement for remission of sins was not completed until the blood was brought into the holiest and the High Priest came out before the people and was able then to bless the people. However, David and Abraham already were "blessed" (Rom. 4:6-11) in regard to remission of sins by faith in the coming Christ to make that provision. So the application occurred prior to the cross based upon the PROMISE of the coming provision - Rom. 3:25. Application of redemption is based upon the "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) not on the "old" or "new" covenant earthly administrations and provisions (symbolic/literal) of redemption. The actual provision is based in time, but the application is based upon eternal promise ("everlasting" covenant).

There is no past or future tense in Hebrew, however in koine we have the following passages one with a past tense, one with a future tense:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

He is speaking of the NATURAL man as "flesh and blood" cannot look upon God and live, and no man has ever entered heaven in the NATURAL state and returned to tell about it, as "flesh and blood" (natural man) cannot inherit the kingdom of God even NOW nor look upon the face of God even NOW and live.

Matthew 5:8 has a present and future tense application. Present tense NOW in regard to the present spiritual rule of God in the hearts of men. Future tense after the coming of Christ when we shall "see" him as He is.

 

[Van]

Van, I don't see it as "agenda driven", though I would admit that I am probably not the best judge of my inner cogitations as we all have difficulties in that area.

If I am "agenda driven" then we are all agenda driven in any subject wherein we disagree.

I will admit that my view is a minority view (as far as I know ) but I am not alone.

As for SUR - [Samech-holem-Resh] (Depart, turn aside, remove) in the Hebrew it exists 301 times in 284 verses. It is one word of several for which a relationship of God is expressed including a departure (either way, man departs from God or vice versa). IMO SUR does not necessarily mean total abandonment.

My feeling is that it corresponds to the NT koine word adokimos (unfit, unworthy) or translated "castaway" in the AV.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

IMO, Samson and Saul were "castaways" for the time that they were powerless (yes I believe Saul was saved but then again so was David who shed the blood of Uriah). Where was God in His relationship with them? At very least He had 'hid His face" from them.

Which heaven? One day in theology class about 40 years ago we had a discussion: Where is heaven the dwelling place of God wherein He has spent eternity? It must of necessity be uncreated. This alone boggles the mind.

Picture the shadow of it - The tabernacle in the wilderness later to become the Temple in Jerusalem.

Remember, I never said I agreed 100% that they (regenerated OT saints) had exactly the same position as we.

IMO, this is one of the differences, the spirits of the regenerated OT saints did not have access to the actual Holy of Holies. You and I and now the Jewish believers have full authority to come boldly in before the throne of grace both the wall of partition being torn down and the veil being rend.

So in the shadow of the reality the spirits of the regenerated OT saints were indeed in Abraham's Bosom (within the wall of partition but outside the Holy of Holies) awaiting Messiah's arrival to open heaven's door.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jew, Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Hebrews 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

If only we all (myself included) fully realized what we have because of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ our great God and Savior.

HankD

Hi HankD, it is pointless to continue.

1) No, we can disagree without either side being agenda driven. Your view is necessary for the Calvinistic view of scripture, thus agenda driven, i.e. regeneration before faith. This requires rewriting Ephesians 2:8 to say you were saved by grace and given faith. No one, IMO, could read it that way and not be agenda driven.

2) Of course you are not alone, all Calvinists must agree with your view.

3) In your opinion, SUR does not always mean total abandonment. But not one English translation of 1 Sam. 16:14 agrees, they say departed, turned away, turned aside and left. No lexicon supports your view either. So you arrived at your opinion how?

4) For give me for not thinking you can define an OT word using a NT word with a different meaning.

5) And the curtain dividing Jews and Gentiles was torn down, but this has nothing to do with OT Saints having to wait until Christ died to be made perfect.

6) And I see you are now indicating that OT saint regeneration was not the same or did not result in the same new creation as NT saint regeneration. It just gets better and better.

As I said, there is no point in continuing, ...

 

[The Biblicist]

This requires rewriting Ephesians 2:8 to say you were saved by grace and given faith. No one, IMO, could read it that way and not be agenda driven.

I certainly do not believe that we are "saved by grace AND GIVEN FAITH". In context "saved" has already been defined to be synonymous with "quickened" in verse 5 as "saved by grace" is the parenthetical explanation of "quickened" in verse 5, thus merely repeated in verse 8 without use of the term "quickened."

Second, quickening IS the bestowal of faith rather "quickened/saved....AND GIVEN". The substance and hope of faith is created by God by divine fiat just as Paul says in 2 Cor. 4:6 and 1 Thes. 1:5.