Featured The two witnesses

Never said you threw anything out of the bible, I just said if one holds the view of no snatching away then one must throw those teachings out of the Bible. You continue to say there is no snatching away yet scripture clearly says there is. You continue to say that Christ came in 70 A.D. and Bound satan, and set up his Kingdom, to teach that one must not believe what all scripture says.

 

"The appearance will be with pomp and power, with a shout - the shout of a king, and the power and authority of a mighty king and conqueror, with the voice of the archangel; an innumerable company of angels will attend him. Perhaps one, as general of those hosts of the Lord, will give notice of his approach, and the glorious appearance of this great Redeemer and Judge will be proclaimed and ushered in by the trump of God. For the trumpet shall sound, and this will awaken those that sleep in the dust of the earth, and will summon all the world to appear. For, (2.) The dead shall be raised: The dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16), before those who are found alive at Christ's coming shall be changed; and so it appears that those who shall then be found alive shall not prevent those that are asleep, 1 Thessalonians 4:15. The first care of the Redeemer in that day will be about his dead saints; he will raise them before the great change passes on those that shall be found alive: so that those who did not sleep in death will have no greater privilege or joy at that day than those who fell asleep in Jesus. (3.) Those that shall be found alive will then be changed. They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1 Corinthians 15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels."

The church will be caught up, those who are alive and remain sill be changed. This is not recorded in Revelation 18-20, what is recorded, Christ return to the earth with His saints, an Army in white. To defeat the unholy trinity, satan, the beast and false prophet and set up His Kingdom. Therefore the Snatching Away, the catching up of the Bride, of ALL believers does occur, it is when it occurs that is debated. Yet you have consistently said there is no snatching away, and even added forcefully when I gave you all the definitions of the Greek word "HArpazo".

 

So! What is the source? Otherwise the quote is meaningless!

Nothing in quotes mentions a pre-trib removal of the church. I have presented a source for Gill's remarks. I presented a source for Henry's premillennial belief but did not produce the lengthy commentary!

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That is simply your false understanding of Scripture.

I don't accuse you of throwing away John 5:28, 29 because your understanding of it is false!

Where did I say Jesus Christ returned in 70AD?

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Matthew Henry

 

You said the Kingdom began in 70 A.D. in an earlier post and satan was bound 2000 years ago.

 

Wow, I am not the one calling people stupid, and I am only stating what I am reading from your post, at least how you come across.

 

I put scripture upon scripture you just chose not to debate on the merits of that scripture instead you tell me that "I am ignorant and stupid" and don't understand scripture, now you say I am not debating scripture.

 

First I will remind you of you original accusation!

There are at least three statements that are untrue in that post:

1. That I continue to say that Christ came in 70AD and Bound Satan.

2. That Jesus Christ came in 70AD and set up His Kingdom.

3. That I teach that one must not believe what Scripture says.

The above are three lies you have accused me of telling. Now produce the post or posts otherwise make a confession that what you accused me of is untrue.

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I show in my previous post where you accuse me of lying on three occasions. I am expecting proof or a retraction.

You ignore the following Scripture:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now you Darby-pre-trib-dispensationalists insist that Scripture be interpreted literally or as Ryrie says "taken at face value". Now how do you justify interpreting the above Scripture other than literally. The passage teaches one resurrection of all the dead, not multiple resurrections!

I would also note as I have before that I have not accused you of throwing away Scripture because you cannot interpret the above correctly. I have not accused you of "teaching that one must not believe what Scripture says" because you do not correctly understand the above Scripture. So why do you accuse me of those things. Is it because pre-trib-dispensationalists are basically mean spirited. Frankly that has been my experience during the 11 years I have spent on this BB!

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Matthew Henry. Where in Matthew Henry? You are evading the issue because you know that information from Matthew does not support a pre-trig-snatching-away of the Church.

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The following is rather long but it is incumbent on those who post source material present the whole story. The "revmwc" did not!

Response by revmwc in his post #102:

The source of the above which the poster states upon being challenged gives the answer as

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I looked and found the above quote including part which was omitted. Now consider what Matthew Henry states in his comments on the passage: {From page 785 of Volume 6 of Matthew Henry's Commentary}

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Note first that "revmwc" omits the following initial comments:

Notice first that Henry states:

Notice that this is not some secret "snatching-away" of the Church but actually the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Now consider the last sentence of paragraph 3:

This sentence shows that Matthew Henry is talking about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the secret Rapture of the Church. Furthermore Henry speaks of Judgment:

There you have the "rest of the story". Neither Gill or Henry believed in the pre-trib-"snatching-away" of the Church!

I also note that paragraph 4 which "revmwc" omits speaks of the Second Coming, not the secret Rapture!

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OR,
Just for the record, where do you stand in reference to Preterism?

 

Matthew Henry's complete commentary on 1st Thessalonians. The point was and still is Henry taught of a coming time that the church would be caught up and taken to Heaven prior to the 2nd coming. That is clear in the entire portion of the Commentary. Also Henry taught that satan would be bound for 1000 years during the kingdom and if you look at His Revelation commentary you will see he believed the kingodm was literal and still yet to come, which you have said it is not coming but already is.

 

I have not accused you of throwing out scripture, I have not called you a liar anywhere in these post. You however have called me stupid, ignorant and something regarding an idiot or something like that.

What I have said is that anyone who holds certain doctrines as truth must in reality throw out certain scripture which doesn't fit their doctrine. You must of taken it as meaning you and it was not. Secondly I have stated over and over when I say you seem to believe you need to answer no this is how I believe and state how what I interpret what you say is really not what you say and correct it.

You seem to take things really personal, I mean if you comprehend me as stupid and idiot, I can't state anything that will change your mind.

 

You interpret everything to fit your doctrine. Just like Revelation 20 says satan will be bound and kept from deceiving the world. But you say satan has been bound for 2000 years. Yet Revelation 20 says satan will be bound for only 1000 years, you misinterpret scripture and accuse me of the same. To keep from making the post lengthy I pulled out what was redundant in Matthew Henry's post. What you say is second coming actually I see as the Rapture, for purposes of keeping things too lengthy I cut some. Again and again you try to make it appear to answer your doctrinal stance instead of reading what Henry said. Which is there is going to be a snatching away, the church will be caught up in the air and meet Christ in the clouds, that Matthew Henry does say. On the reference it is not The commentary on Revelation it is the 1st Thessalonian commentary, I got in a hurry and mis wrote. Sorry.

 

Last sentence you continue to refer to the man you seem to hate Darby, see my first comment in this post.

 

You cannot understand plain English. Henry is talking about the Second Coming. Read his entire commentary on the passage, part of which you omitted trying to prove that Henry was a pre-tribber. That is dishonest!

Matthew was a covenant premillennialist and had a correct doctrine of the Church. He was not a Pre-trib-dispensationalist who believed the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a parenthesis in God's program for National Israel.

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I would also remind you that you have not yet responded to the following post #109 that calls you out for posting lies about what I believe!

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You not only misinterpret Scripture you misinterpret what Matthew Henry said. You are trying to read a pre-trib "snatching away' of the Church into what Henry says and you accuse me of interpreting everything to fit my doctrine.

Please respond to my post #109 or admit that you lied about what I believe!

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In the above post you take my post #37 and insert your comments into the post creating a hodgepodge of conflicting statements. That is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. What is your problem man!

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