Featured Divine Illumination/ Divine Enablement

Now that I got you on this page, you will have to agree that the unsaved are able to understand the scripture and obey it without any outside help.
There is no reason for an unregenerate man to pick up scripture and obey it; that is, to repent and believe.
This is now your default position. Right?

 

I did not know there was anything special about page 13 but if you say so DHK!

I have no idea how you come up with such nonsense. Perhaps unlucky page 13 has put a hex on you. Frankly DHK since you believe the following and have actually doubled down on it I can see no reason to discuss Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine with you. You falsely, and in my opinion blasphemously, insist that man/woman gives Scripture meaning:

I insist that Scripture is the inerrant inspired Word of God and He alone gives it meaning. I even quoted Scripture to demonstrate that God's Word accomplishes that which HE desires:

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Of course God does not stop there for we read in the Gospel according to John:

John 1:1-4, 14
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I recall telling you in my previous post:

And then even earlier I told you:

G R A C E, DHK! GRACE! Only by the GRACE of God are any saved.

No Grace, No Incarnation;
No Incarnation, No Cross;
No Cross, No Resurrection;
No Resurrection, No Hope.

Your post #121, which I show above, was particularly offensive. You responded to nothing I posted but demonstrated once again that you are particularly disingenuous when you attempt to define what others believe. I suppose their words have no meaning unless you give them your meaning. Now DHK I have nothing further to discuss with you regarding Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine since you state:

It should be obvious that we have no common basis for discussing Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine. However, if you enjoy talking politics I will be happy to met you on the Politics Forum.

 

There is nothing special about this page as in page number. I mean "this far in the conversation." You are arguing that your method of quoting scripture without giving any sense of the meaning is still very meaningful. If that is true then even the unsaved should be able to pick up a Bible and understand it, contrary to your interpretation of 1Cor.2:14.

Why are you being superstitious about "13." I never said that. I simply meant this far along. If scripture has meaning in and of itself without commentary, then logically any person can pick up a Bible and be saved by reading it. I am glad that you agree with that now.
But that has never been the discussion within the context of this thread.
The entire discussion or debate you have entirely avoided.

In a general sense, I will agree with that.
But that is not the context of this discussion which you have avoided.

Again, you are ignoring the context of this thread and discussion.

And I corrected you. Grace alone cannot save. God gives grace to the unsaved. Jesus himself said he allows the sun to shine upon the saved and unsaved alike. He allows the rain to fall upon the just and unjust alike. That is grace, but it does not bring salvation.
What brings salvation?
Salvation is in Christ alone, through grace alone, by faith alone.

What was offensive?
Hudson Taylor, as an unsaved man, picked up a tract and read it. He was convicted by the Word which it presented and right there was regenerated/saved--something your Calvinist theology says cannot happen. Of course the tract explained the scriptures so that they were not without meaning. History disproves your theology. Too bad.

Here is the context of what this discussion was, and should have continued in.
From:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2190237&postcount=61

You were asked to "demonstrate regeneration through the Scriptures."
Check out the link provided.
You copy and pasted John 3:3-8 and John 3:9-12.

I will say again such posting of Scripture is meaningless without you giving meaning to it. You didn't answer the question simply by posting scripture. I believe in regeneration, and I believe in those scriptures too. So what did you accomplish? Absolutely nothing!
You gave no meaning to the scriptures and no answer to the question posed to you.
The scripture posted is meaningless as an answer unless you give it meaning.

Now is it clear.

 

No Reformed Theology does not say that someone can't get saved from reading the Scriptures.
This statement of yours makes no sense as I have never heard of a Reformed person making the claim that reading the Bible is not a method God bringing about the end result of them being saved. And before you get all crazy about my use of methods I'm not saying that people are saved outside of Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone. What I'm meaning is that people have different testimonies of the way God brought them to a knowledge of Salvation by Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone.

In fact I think one of the most powerful things we can encourage the unsaved to do is to read the Bible.

My own husband in (very Reformed, he asked about my thoughts on Election in one of our first interactions as a make it or break it questions lol) his testimony talks about how he would just read John and Romans over and over again until he realized that God had saved him.

 

Thanks for your response to DHK, blessedwife. Not that it will have a positive impact on him, sad to say. I refuse to respond to him anymore because frankly I believe his statement:

is not only false but blasphemous. He also has a bad habit of applying his own meaning to what you say. I suppose given his opinion of the Word of God that is not surprising!

I have long said that God saves people as individuals. Salvation is a personal encounter between a person and God though they may not realize it at the time. Jesus Christ makes this point in talking about the New Birth.

God is not a cookie cutter God. Therefore, it is likely that everyones salvation experience will be different.

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Icon believes faith comes only by regeneration.
It is impossible for the unregenerate to understand the Word of God, he claims because they don't have the Spirit of God. (1Cor.2:14).

When I gave my own testimony, how, when I understood the gospel and then believed it, I was saved, then he caustically mocked my testimony. He does so because God has to do everything in regeneration because man cannot understand the Word of God or do anything. If he is honest he will have to admit this to you. Just take a look at this post of his:

Truly a sad post and misrepresenting of what I believe.

 

Seriously? By now I would think you'd actually understand Calvinism, but instead you regularly go out of your way (like here) to demonstrate that you know nothing about it.

:thumbsup:

 

blessedwife, Notice that DHK states, even when talking about the Salvation of Taylor by reading the Bible:

He is still clinging to his blasphemous claim that:

So according to DHK just reading the Word of God is useless! But thank God He tells us different:

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

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Did you not read how SBM went on and on about the blindness of the unregenerate or non-elect according to his favorite scripture:

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The whole discussion revolved around 2Cor.4:3. The gospel is hid to the lost; the unregenerate. They can't see it; understand it; hear it; etc.
Read the Word of God if you will (according to SBM), it won't do any good. The unregenerate is blind and the gospel is hid to the lost.

That is what many Calvinists believe. Am I right or wrong?

 

Well of course the Natural man cannot understand the Scriptures. Of course that is what this entire tread is about. I guess the question is do you believe that the Holy Spirit is the one that Illuminates Scripture?

But saying that the Natural man cannot understand the Scripture is in no way saying that God cannot use His Word to bring about Regeneration in a person. of course that gets into the whole Order Salutis which is a whole other topic.

Well it does seem to me after reading through all 13 pages that you are arguing that the Spirit does not Illuminate Scripture. Not to mention also Ironic given your clear misrepresentation of Reformed Theology.

 

Yet you can't prove one verse in the NT where faith is given to the unregenerate, can you? Not even one. Therefore your idea here remains "of Calvin," and not of the Word. Demonstrate it to be Biblical first.

Again, you can't demonstrate that when you take the entire context into consideration. Taking the context into consideration it refutes some of your favorite doctrines, proving the teaching of carnal Christians and refuting your interpretation of 1Cor.2:14.

The natural man--
From Thayer's:

The definition doesn't necessarily define the unsaved, though it could. It defines the sensual. A sensual man can be either saved or unsaved. Many of the Corinthians were sensual, carnal. They were saved. But they hadn't grown in Christ. They had neglected the Word. They had only progressed so that they were able to drink milk and not yet eat meat. It was the most carnal church in the area--every chapter, a chapter of correction.
--2:14 refers to the carnal Christians so defined by Paul in chapter 3.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
He calls them "brethren," "babes," and "carnal" twice.
They were carnal Christians.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--This verse refers "to the deep things of God," to "the meat of the Word," not to the "milk of God's Word," not to the gospel.

You state an evil misrepresentation.
First, I have always stated that salvation is all of God. Christ paid the penalty.
Every non-Cal believes salvation is all of grace. But if grace is forced on an individual it is not grace. Grace is thwarted. For grace to be grace, grace must be received and freely received. Grace is received by faith. Grace doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Faith comes from the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You persist in this errant belief that somehow God mysteriously gives you a special kind of faith to belief, and yet you can't demonstrate it through the Word of God. Go to Romans 10:17.

And yes, the passage in Ezekiel 36 has nothing to do with NT salvation. The passage is written to Israel, has to do with the future restoration of Israel in the Kingdom. Even the regathering of Israel is promised "in the land of their fathers," is stated so clearly that it cannot be applied to NT Christianity. Your allegorical interpretation of this passage is totally uncalled for and just muddies the water.

And that only shows your heart.

We learn about salvation in the NT. The saints of the OT were never presented with the gospel of Christ. So why are you still stuck on an OT message. If you can't present the gospel from the NT, then something is wrong.

I have consistently said (as I did previously--but apparently you ignored), that the work of the Holy Spirit is summed up in John 16:8-11.
That scripture still applies today.

The fact that many Calvinists cannot give a clear-cut testimony of their salvation is truly sad.

--a truly metaphysical statement.

 

No, I do believe that the Spirit illuminates the Scripture.
But in conversing with others, perhaps more Calvinistic or more extreme than you might be, they say that if they are non-elect they will never understand the Scriptures. God will never reveal it to them.
It is not a misrepresentation. It is simply a fact that there is an entire range of Calvinists here and they all don't agree with each other. There are some that believe in a hard predeterminism and some that don't.

 

What SBM says is irrelevant. For the record I tend to ignore him as he seems rather unbalanced in his theology and his discussions.

It is true that simple reading of the Word will not do anything for the unregenerate. They can't fully comprehend it as the scriptures are spiritual and they are not. That said, there is nothing at all preventing God from using the written word to enlighten the sinner to the truth of the gospel and in fact he often works that way. This is completely consistent with Calvinism as is demonstrated by the many Calvinists who make or buy tracts to distribute in evangelism.

I have a feeling that you actually knew this, you just wanted to get in your anti-calvinist digs for some reason. I have a hard time believing that after so long you are still so uninformed regarding what Calvinists believe.

 

I agree!

I like what God says about His Word!

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

DHK has stated that the Word of God is useless unless some other person explains it.

He apparently does not believe that the Holy Spirit can illuminate Scripture. The truth is that the Holy Spirit must be involved in the Salvation of a person regardless of who else is involved

Perhaps ignorance really is bliss!:tonofbricks:

 

Not really. The more I read about Calvinism the more inconsistencies and contradictions I find. The one you expressed is one of them. IMO it is totally inconsistent.
--"The reading of the Word will not do anything for the unregenerate."
--"They can't fully comprehend it as the scriptures are spiritual and they are not."

Your next statement is what non-Cals believe. "There is nothing at all preventing God from using the written Word to enlighten the sinner to the truth of the Gospel."
Now I said something close to that in my testimony, and Icon jumped on me saying that my salvation is not of God but all man-centered, coming close to calling me not saved. Why? Because I understood the Scriptures that were being explained to me. Why am I castigated for saying such a statement? In Icon's view I simply used the first person singular "I." Salvation is all of God, which I never denied.

Read Icon's view of regeneration. It is all from Ezekiel 36. God does it all by exchanging your heart and sprinkling you with water. Totally incomprehensible. This is what I am against. No belief; no faith; no Word of God. It is a mystical undefinable operation taken out of the OT from a passage which deals directly with Israel.

 

Got this far and had to say it: Priceless!:thumbs:

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