Divine Illumination/ Divine Enablement

[DHK]

{Emphasis is mine.}

Basically what you are claiming is that the Word of God is useless. However, that Word which you think is useless disagrees with you.

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I believe that most knowledgeable Christians disagree with you, just as the Masters Journal disagrees with you, just as the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy disagrees with you. I suspect essentially all knowledgeable and conservative evangelical Christians also disagree with you. But as the link I posted states, those in the liberal camp, and I am sure most cults, agree with you: You, or they, determine what the Word of God means, not God.

Do you know why I always post Scripture in dark red DHK. Apparently it offends some people. I post in "dark red" because it reminds me that were it not for the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Word of God would be just what you say it is.

I posted earlier something which you would do well to consider. I said that if it were not for the Grace of God no one could be saved. That Grace is not free, it cost the blood of Jesus Christ. That verse of Scripture I posted above is true because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

But you go your miserable way believing what you choose.

*****************************************************************************************************

Now that I got you on this page, you will have to agree that the unsaved are able to understand the scripture and obey it without any outside help.
There is no reason for an unregenerate man to pick up scripture and obey it; that is, to repent and believe.
This is now your default position. Right?

 

[OldRegular]

I did not know there was anything special about page 13 but if you say so DHK!

Now that I got you on this page, you will have to agree that the unsaved are able to understand the scripture and obey it without any outside help.
There is no reason for an unregenerate man to pick up scripture and obey it; that is, to repent and believe.
This is now your default position. Right?

I have no idea how you come up with such nonsense. Perhaps unlucky page 13 has put a hex on you. Frankly DHK since you believe the following and have actually doubled down on it I can see no reason to discuss Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine with you. You falsely, and in my opinion blasphemously, insist that man/woman gives Scripture meaning:

Originally Posted by DHK
All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

I insist that Scripture is the inerrant inspired Word of God and He alone gives it meaning. I even quoted Scripture to demonstrate that God's Word accomplishes that which HE desires:

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Of course God does not stop there for we read in the Gospel according to John:

John 1:1-4, 14
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I recall telling you in my previous post:

I post in "dark red" because it reminds me that were it not for the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Word of God would be just what you say it is.

meaningless

And then even earlier I told you:

G R A C E, DHK! GRACE! Only by the GRACE of God are any saved.

No Grace, No Incarnation;
No Incarnation, No Cross;
No Cross, No Resurrection;
No Resurrection, No Hope.

Your post #121, which I show above, was particularly offensive. You responded to nothing I posted but demonstrated once again that you are particularly disingenuous when you attempt to define what others believe. I suppose their words have no meaning unless you give them your meaning. Now DHK I have nothing further to discuss with you regarding Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine since you state:

Originally Posted by DHK
All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

It should be obvious that we have no common basis for discussing Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine. However, if you enjoy talking politics I will be happy to met you on the Politics Forum.

 

[DHK]

I did not know there was anything special about page 13 but if you say so DHK!

There is nothing special about this page as in page number. I mean "this far in the conversation." You are arguing that your method of quoting scripture without giving any sense of the meaning is still very meaningful. If that is true then even the unsaved should be able to pick up a Bible and understand it, contrary to your interpretation of 1Cor.2:14.

I have no idea how you come up with such nonsense. Perhaps unlucky page 13 has put a hex on you. Frankly DHK since you believe the following and have actually doubled down on it I can see no reason to discuss Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine with you. You falsely, and in my opinion blasphemously, insist that man/woman gives Scripture meaning:

Why are you being superstitious about "13." I never said that. I simply meant this far along. If scripture has meaning in and of itself without commentary, then logically any person can pick up a Bible and be saved by reading it. I am glad that you agree with that now.
But that has never been the discussion within the context of this thread.
The entire discussion or debate you have entirely avoided.

I insist that Scripture is the inerrant inspired Word of God and He alone gives it meaning. I even quoted Scripture to demonstrate that God's Word accomplishes that which HE desires:

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In a general sense, I will agree with that.
But that is not the context of this discussion which you have avoided.

Of course God does not stop there for we read in the Gospel according to John:

John 1:1-4, 14
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again, you are ignoring the context of this thread and discussion.

I recall telling you in my previous post:

And then even earlier I told you:

G R A C E, DHK! GRACE! Only by the GRACE of God are any saved.

No Grace, No Incarnation;
No Incarnation, No Cross;
No Cross, No Resurrection;
No Resurrection, No Hope.

And I corrected you. Grace alone cannot save. God gives grace to the unsaved. Jesus himself said he allows the sun to shine upon the saved and unsaved alike. He allows the rain to fall upon the just and unjust alike. That is grace, but it does not bring salvation.
What brings salvation?
Salvation is in Christ alone, through grace alone, by faith alone.

Your post #121, which I show above, was particularly offensive. You responded to nothing I posted but demonstrated once again that you are particularly disingenuous when you attempt to define what others believe. I suppose their words have no meaning unless you give them your meaning. Now DHK I have nothing further to discuss with you regarding Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine since you state:

What was offensive?
Hudson Taylor, as an unsaved man, picked up a tract and read it. He was convicted by the Word which it presented and right there was regenerated/saved--something your Calvinist theology says cannot happen. Of course the tract explained the scriptures so that they were not without meaning. History disproves your theology. Too bad.

It should be obvious that we have no common basis for discussing Scripture, Salvation, or Christian Doctrine. However, if you enjoy talking politics I will be happy to met you on the Politics Forum.

Here is the context of what this discussion was, and should have continued in.
From:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2190237&postcount=61

You were asked to "demonstrate regeneration through the Scriptures."
Check out the link provided.
You copy and pasted John 3:3-8 and John 3:9-12.

I will say again such posting of Scripture is meaningless without you giving meaning to it. You didn't answer the question simply by posting scripture. I believe in regeneration, and I believe in those scriptures too. So what did you accomplish? Absolutely nothing!
You gave no meaning to the scriptures and no answer to the question posed to you.
The scripture posted is meaningless as an answer unless you give it meaning.

Now is it clear.

 

[blessedwife318]

Hudson Taylor, as an unsaved man, picked up a tract and read it. He was convicted by the Word which it presented and right there was regenerated/saved--something your Calvinist theology says cannot happen. Of course the tract explained the scriptures so that they were not without meaning. History disproves your theology. Too bad.

No Reformed Theology does not say that someone can't get saved from reading the Scriptures.
This statement of yours makes no sense as I have never heard of a Reformed person making the claim that reading the Bible is not a method God bringing about the end result of them being saved. And before you get all crazy about my use of methods I'm not saying that people are saved outside of Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone. What I'm meaning is that people have different testimonies of the way God brought them to a knowledge of Salvation by Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone.

In fact I think one of the most powerful things we can encourage the unsaved to do is to read the Bible.

My own husband in (very Reformed, he asked about my thoughts on Election in one of our first interactions as a make it or break it questions lol) his testimony talks about how he would just read John and Romans over and over again until he realized that God had saved him.

 

[OldRegular]

No Reformed Theology does not say that someone can't get saved from reading the Scriptures.
This statement of yours makes no sense as I have never heard of a Reformed person making the claim that reading the Bible is not a method God bringing about the end result of them being saved. And before you get all crazy about my use of methods I'm not saying that people are saved outside of Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone. What I'm meaning is that people have different testimonies of the way God brought them to a knowledge of Salvation by Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone.

In fact I think one of the most powerful things we can encourage the unsaved to do is to read the Bible.

My own husband in (very Reformed, he asked about my thoughts on Election in one of our first interactions as a make it or break it questions lol) his testimony talks about how he would just read John and Romans over and over again until he realized that God had saved him.

Thanks for your response to DHK, blessedwife. Not that it will have a positive impact on him, sad to say. I refuse to respond to him anymore because frankly I believe his statement:

Originally Posted by DHK
All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

is not only false but blasphemous. He also has a bad habit of applying his own meaning to what you say. I suppose given his opinion of the Word of God that is not surprising!

I have long said that God saves people as individuals. Salvation is a personal encounter between a person and God though they may not realize it at the time. Jesus Christ makes this point in talking about the New Birth.

God is not a cookie cutter God. Therefore, it is likely that everyones salvation experience will be different.

********************************************************************************************************

 

[DHK]

No Reformed Theology does not say that someone can't get saved from reading the Scriptures.
This statement of yours makes no sense as I have never heard of a Reformed person making the claim that reading the Bible is not a method God bringing about the end result of them being saved. And before you get all crazy about my use of methods I'm not saying that people are saved outside of Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone. What I'm meaning is that people have different testimonies of the way God brought them to a knowledge of Salvation by Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone.

In fact I think one of the most powerful things we can encourage the unsaved to do is to read the Bible.

My own husband in (very Reformed, he asked about my thoughts on Election in one of our first interactions as a make it or break it questions lol) his testimony talks about how he would just read John and Romans over and over again until he realized that God had saved him.

Icon believes faith comes only by regeneration.
It is impossible for the unregenerate to understand the Word of God, he claims because they don't have the Spirit of God. (1Cor.2:14).

When I gave my own testimony, how, when I understood the gospel and then believed it, I was saved, then he caustically mocked my testimony. He does so because God has to do everything in regeneration because man cannot understand the Word of God or do anything. If he is honest he will have to admit this to you. Just take a look at this post of his:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2187515&postcount=21

Not so,,,read DHK's testimony which I spoke of in the previous post. The one he offered a few months ago he was very clear that He did this, and He did that....and then was saved. He has made fun of the idea that the Spirit had to enable a person to believe......he refers to that as magical, saying things such as ....I did not just sit down in the lotus position and get zapped by any "force"......NO...He did it all...then God saved him.

Truly a sad post and misrepresenting of what I believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Icon believes faith comes only by regeneration.

Icon believes saving faith and repentance is a gift from God as part of the gift of salvation.
Saving faith does not reside in men naturally as the fall has affected every part of their being.

It is impossible for the unregenerate to understand the Word of God, he claims because they don't have the Spirit of God. (1Cor.2:14).

The scripture in 1 cor 2 could not be clearer...the natural man...cannot....he lacks the ability or power.

Edwards - "The revelation given to Christians as an event that began a new epoch in the world's history."

While there is no longer any new revelation, the selfsame Spirit gives illumination to all believers, and without His illumination we cannot understand the Word. As the Psalmist writes "The unfolding (opening, unveiling giving understanding of something otherwise difficult) of Thy words gives light. It gives understanding to the simple." (Ps 119:130-note)

In fact, it is always a good practice before we open the Word, to go to God asking Him to open our heart to receive the Word, praying "Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Thy law." (Ps 119:18-note). Do you ask God's Spirit to open your "spiritual eyes" before you open His Word?

That is what this thread is about;

ESV Study Bible - God’s Spirit bridges the chasm between the deep things of God and the human heart, graciously enabling (Ed Comment: Notice it says "enabling" NOT helping! We don't just need a little "push!" We need His supernatural enablement from start to finish! He initiates, giving us the desire, and He works within us, giving us the Power! Php 2:13NLT. Praise His Holy Name!) human beings to understand the message of the Cross, which would otherwise be incomprehensible.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised: psuchikos de anthropos ou dechetai (PMI/PPI) ta tou pneumatos tou theou moria gar auto estin, (PAI) kai ou dunatai (PMI/PPI) gnonai, (AAN) hoti pneumatikos anakrinetai; (PPI): (the na


HE DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER OR ABILITY TO KNOW THEM....
Amplified - But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

Barclay - A man who has no life but physical life cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. To him they are foolishness and he cannot understand them, because it takes the Spirit to discern them.

NLT - But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means.

Wuest Expanded Paraphrase - But the unregenerate man of the highest intellectual attainments does not grant access to the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are folly, and he is not able to come to know them because they are investigated in a spiritual realm.

When I gave my own testimony, how, when I understood the gospel and then believed it, I was saved, then he caustically mocked my testimony

.

About a year ago you boasted how you did it all by yourself, nothing moved upon you, There was no secret working internally ...it was so bad I said at that time that if that was all that happened to you, then you were not yet God's child as you denied that The Spirit works in the unseen realm.....
You denied it two times in this very thread, you say that Ezk36:25-27 is not speaking to what happens to Christians....

I mocked your proud boasting then, I said there would be no such boasting in heaven.....

He does so because God has to do everything in regeneration because man cannot understand the Word of God or do anything. If he is honest he will have to admit this to you. Just take a look at this post of his:

I believe the bible when it says God quickens dead sinners to new life...yes It is supernatural heart transplant. IF it has not happened to you, you have no right to claim to be God's child.

So DHK...are you going to deny that the new Covenant is for Chrisitans?
Are you going to deny that the Spirit must supernaturally reveal Christ to believers allowing them to welcome truth by giving a new heart?

Tells us fresh...so I do not have to search for your original denial of the Spirits work in the unseen realm:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Truly a sad post and misrepresenting of what I believe.

really...well then...tell us again what you originally posted.....Do not make me look it up and show that you cannot admit to what you posted.

 

[RLBosley]

Hudson Taylor, as an unsaved man, picked up a tract and read it. He was convicted by the Word which it presented and right there was regenerated/saved--something your Calvinist theology says cannot happen. Of course the tract explained the scriptures so that they were not without meaning. History disproves your theology. Too bad.

Seriously? By now I would think you'd actually understand Calvinism, but instead you regularly go out of your way (like here) to demonstrate that you know nothing about it.

No Reformed Theology does not say that someone can't get saved from reading the Scriptures.
This statement of yours makes no sense as I have never heard of a Reformed person making the claim that reading the Bible is not a method God bringing about the end result of them being saved. And before you get all crazy about my use of methods I'm not saying that people are saved outside of Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone. What I'm meaning is that people have different testimonies of the way God brought them to a knowledge of Salvation by Grace Alone, Faith Alone in Christ Alone.

In fact I think one of the most powerful things we can encourage the unsaved to do is to read the Bible.

My own husband in (very Reformed, he asked about my thoughts on Election in one of our first interactions as a make it or break it questions lol) his testimony talks about how he would just read John and Romans over and over again until he realized that God had saved him.

:thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

In fact I think one of the most powerful things we can encourage the unsaved to do is to read the Bible.

blessedwife, Notice that DHK states, even when talking about the Salvation of Taylor by reading the Bible:

Originally posted by DHK
Of course the tract explained the scriptures so that they were not without meaning.

He is still clinging to his blasphemous claim that:

Originally Posted by DHK
All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

So according to DHK just reading the Word of God is useless! But thank God He tells us different:

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

********************************************************************************************************

 

[DHK]

Seriously? By now I would think you'd actually understand Calvinism, but instead you regularly go out of your way (like here) to demonstrate that you know nothing about it.

Did you not read how SBM went on and on about the blindness of the unregenerate or non-elect according to his favorite scripture:

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The whole discussion revolved around 2Cor.4:3. The gospel is hid to the lost; the unregenerate. They can't see it; understand it; hear it; etc.
Read the Word of God if you will (according to SBM), it won't do any good. The unregenerate is blind and the gospel is hid to the lost.

That is what many Calvinists believe. Am I right or wrong?

 

[blessedwife318]

Icon believes faith comes only by regeneration.
It is impossible for the unregenerate to understand the Word of God, he claims because they don't have the Spirit of God. (1Cor.2:14).

Well of course the Natural man cannot understand the Scriptures. Of course that is what this entire tread is about. I guess the question is do you believe that the Holy Spirit is the one that Illuminates Scripture?

But saying that the Natural man cannot understand the Scripture is in no way saying that God cannot use His Word to bring about Regeneration in a person. of course that gets into the whole Order Salutis which is a whole other topic.

Truly a sad post and misrepresenting of what I believe.

Well it does seem to me after reading through all 13 pages that you are arguing that the Spirit does not Illuminate Scripture. Not to mention also Ironic given your clear misrepresentation of Reformed Theology.

 

[DHK]

DHK
Icon believes saving faith and repentance is a gift from God as part of the gift of salvation.
Saving faith does not reside in men naturally as the fall has affected every part of their being.

Yet you can't prove one verse in the NT where faith is given to the unregenerate, can you? Not even one. Therefore your idea here remains "of Calvin," and not of the Word. Demonstrate it to be Biblical first.

The scripture in 1 cor 2 could not be clearer...the natural man...cannot....he lacks the ability or power.

Again, you can't demonstrate that when you take the entire context into consideration. Taking the context into consideration it refutes some of your favorite doctrines, proving the teaching of carnal Christians and refuting your interpretation of 1Cor.2:14.

The natural man--
From Thayer's:

psuchikos
Thayer Definition:
1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

The definition doesn't necessarily define the unsaved, though it could. It defines the sensual. A sensual man can be either saved or unsaved. Many of the Corinthians were sensual, carnal. They were saved. But they hadn't grown in Christ. They had neglected the Word. They had only progressed so that they were able to drink milk and not yet eat meat. It was the most carnal church in the area--every chapter, a chapter of correction.
--2:14 refers to the carnal Christians so defined by Paul in chapter 3.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
He calls them "brethren," "babes," and "carnal" twice.
They were carnal Christians.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--This verse refers "to the deep things of God," to "the meat of the Word," not to the "milk of God's Word," not to the gospel.

About a year ago you boasted how you did it all by yourself, nothing moved upon you, There was no secret working internally ...it was so bad I said at that time that if that was all that happened to you, then you were not yet God's child as you denied that The Spirit works in the unseen realm.....
You denied it two times in this very thread, you say that Ezk36:25-27 is not speaking to what happens to Christians....

You state an evil misrepresentation.
First, I have always stated that salvation is all of God. Christ paid the penalty.
Every non-Cal believes salvation is all of grace. But if grace is forced on an individual it is not grace. Grace is thwarted. For grace to be grace, grace must be received and freely received. Grace is received by faith. Grace doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Faith comes from the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You persist in this errant belief that somehow God mysteriously gives you a special kind of faith to belief, and yet you can't demonstrate it through the Word of God. Go to Romans 10:17.

And yes, the passage in Ezekiel 36 has nothing to do with NT salvation. The passage is written to Israel, has to do with the future restoration of Israel in the Kingdom. Even the regathering of Israel is promised "in the land of their fathers," is stated so clearly that it cannot be applied to NT Christianity. Your allegorical interpretation of this passage is totally uncalled for and just muddies the water.

I mocked your proud boasting then, I said there would be no such boasting in heaven.....

And that only shows your heart.

I believe the bible when it says God quickens dead sinners to new life...yes It is supernatural heart transplant. IF it has not happened to you, you have no right to claim to be God's child.

We learn about salvation in the NT. The saints of the OT were never presented with the gospel of Christ. So why are you still stuck on an OT message. If you can't present the gospel from the NT, then something is wrong.

So DHK...are you going to deny that the new Covenant is for Chrisitans?
Are you going to deny that the Spirit must supernaturally reveal Christ to believers allowing them to welcome truth by giving a new heart?

I have consistently said (as I did previously--but apparently you ignored), that the work of the Holy Spirit is summed up in John 16:8-11.
That scripture still applies today.

The fact that many Calvinists cannot give a clear-cut testimony of their salvation is truly sad.

Tells us fresh...so I do not have to search for your original denial of the Spirits work in the unseen realm

--a truly metaphysical statement.

 

[DHK]

Well it does seem to me after reading through all 13 pages that you are arguing that the Spirit does not Illuminate Scripture. Not to mention also Ironic given your clear misrepresentation of Reformed Theology.

No, I do believe that the Spirit illuminates the Scripture.
But in conversing with others, perhaps more Calvinistic or more extreme than you might be, they say that if they are non-elect they will never understand the Scriptures. God will never reveal it to them.
It is not a misrepresentation. It is simply a fact that there is an entire range of Calvinists here and they all don't agree with each other. There are some that believe in a hard predeterminism and some that don't.

 

[RLBosley]

Did you not read how SBM went on and on about the blindness of the unregenerate or non-elect according to his favorite scripture:

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The whole discussion revolved around 2Cor.4:3. The gospel is hid to the lost; the unregenerate. They can't see it; understand it; hear it; etc.
Read the Word of God if you will (according to SBM), it won't do any good. The unregenerate is blind and the gospel is hid to the lost.

That is what many Calvinists believe. Am I right or wrong?

What SBM says is irrelevant. For the record I tend to ignore him as he seems rather unbalanced in his theology and his discussions.

It is true that simple reading of the Word will not do anything for the unregenerate. They can't fully comprehend it as the scriptures are spiritual and they are not. That said, there is nothing at all preventing God from using the written word to enlighten the sinner to the truth of the gospel and in fact he often works that way. This is completely consistent with Calvinism as is demonstrated by the many Calvinists who make or buy tracts to distribute in evangelism.

I have a feeling that you actually knew this, you just wanted to get in your anti-calvinist digs for some reason. I have a hard time believing that after so long you are still so uninformed regarding what Calvinists believe.

 

[OldRegular]

What SBM says is irrelevant. For the record I tend to ignore him as he seems rather unbalanced in his theology and his discussions.

I agree!

It is true that simple reading of the Word will not do anything for the unregenerate. They can't fully comprehend it as the scriptures are spiritual and they are not. That said, there is nothing at all preventing God from using the written word to enlighten the sinner to the truth of the gospel and in fact he often works that way. This is completely consistent with Calvinism as is demonstrated by the many Calvinists who make or buy tracts to distribute in evangelism.

I like what God says about His Word!

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

DHK has stated that the Word of God is useless unless some other person explains it.

Originally Posted by DHK
The scripture remains meaningless until someone gives it meaning.

He apparently does not believe that the Holy Spirit can illuminate Scripture. The truth is that the Holy Spirit must be involved in the Salvation of a person regardless of who else is involved

I have a feeling that you actually knew this, you just wanted to get in your anti-calvinist digs for some reason. I have a hard time believing that after so long you are still so uninformed regarding what Calvinists believe.

Perhaps ignorance really is bliss!:tonofbricks:

 

[DHK]

It is true that simple reading of the Word will not do anything for the unregenerate. They can't fully comprehend it as the scriptures are spiritual and they are not. That said, there is nothing at all preventing God from using the written word to enlighten the sinner to the truth of the gospel and in fact he often works that way. This is completely consistent with Calvinism as is demonstrated by the many Calvinists who make or buy tracts to distribute in evangelism.

I have a feeling that you actually knew this, you just wanted to get in your anti-calvinist digs for some reason. I have a hard time believing that after so long you are still so uninformed regarding what Calvinists believe.

Not really. The more I read about Calvinism the more inconsistencies and contradictions I find. The one you expressed is one of them. IMO it is totally inconsistent.
--"The reading of the Word will not do anything for the unregenerate."
--"They can't fully comprehend it as the scriptures are spiritual and they are not."

Your next statement is what non-Cals believe. "There is nothing at all preventing God from using the written Word to enlighten the sinner to the truth of the Gospel."
Now I said something close to that in my testimony, and Icon jumped on me saying that my salvation is not of God but all man-centered, coming close to calling me not saved. Why? Because I understood the Scriptures that were being explained to me. Why am I castigated for saying such a statement? In Icon's view I simply used the first person singular "I." Salvation is all of God, which I never denied.

Read Icon's view of regeneration. It is all from Ezekiel 36. God does it all by exchanging your heart and sprinkling you with water. Totally incomprehensible. This is what I am against. No belief; no faith; no Word of God. It is a mystical undefinable operation taken out of the OT from a passage which deals directly with Israel.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Yet you can't prove one verse in the NT where faith is given to the unregenerate, can you? Not even one.

Based on your post here you are still struggling mightily do understand these things.
As all men sinned and Died in Adam....and salvation is of the Lord...what everyone else understands is that any and every time someone gets saved, God has granted the gifts of saving repentance and faith to that elect sinner and translates them from darkness to light.

It is the work of God the Holy Spirit in the unseen realm working in the sinner, performing a Divine spiritual surgery DHK. Sorry you do not like the truth as it has been revealed in scripture but that is between you and God as He wrote it.

Therefore your idea here remains "of Calvin,"

Can you show anywhere that I quoted from Calvin?

and not of the Word. Demonstrate it to be Biblical first.

I have offered you scripture as has O.R.....you cannot welcome it however and state that it has "no meaning" unless we give it meaning???? This is indeed strange fire you offer;
10 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.

Again, you can't demonstrate that when you take the entire context into consideration. Taking the context into consideration it refutes some of your favorite doctrines,

lately you show more and more along with two or three other posters that you are not interested in truth.

proving the teaching of carnal Christians and refuting your interpretation of 1Cor.2:14.

You hold what is known as the carnal Christian heresy. You were offered direct proof which you rejected and would not listen to so your error remains.
It was you who said you would not listen to the sermons and teaching offered, so I have no sympathy for your posting of error.

The natural man--
From Thayer's:
The definition doesn't necessarily define the unsaved, though it could. It defines the sensual. A sensual man can be either saved or unsaved. Many of the Corinthians were sensual, carnal. They were saved. But they hadn't grown in Christ. They had neglected the Word. They had only progressed so that they were able to drink milk and not yet eat meat. It was the most carnal church in the area--every chapter, a chapter of correction.
--2:14 refers to the carnal Christians so defined by Paul in chapter 3.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
He calls them "brethren," "babes," and "carnal" twice.
They were carnal Christians.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--This verse refers "to the deep things of God," to "the meat of the Word," not to the "milk of God's Word," not to the gospel.

Your attempt to explain this error fails on several levels...but as you do not want truth at all I will leave you in your error until such time you want to learn.

You state an evil misrepresentation.
First, I have always stated that salvation is all of God. Christ paid the penalty.

No...you are in damage control mode.
I have shown what you have said and when you yourself see it in print, you are shocked at how bad it is.
Everyone has commented that you have totally missed it so now you are attempting to reword it, even borrowing language from the cal teaching in an effort to make it seem like you believe enough truth to make it equivalent to what others have said.....IT DOES NOT.....IT FAILS.

Every non-Cal believes salvation is all of grace.

The teaching that salvation is of "grace" is a mandatory teaching. Non cals do not believe it is ALL of grace. The limit which part of salvation is of grace.
You do it in this very post.

But if grace is forced on an individual it is not grace. Grace is thwarted. For grace to be grace, grace must be received and freely received. Grace is received by faith. Grace doesn't exist in a vacuum

.

Strawman.....Cals do not teach "forced grace" Psalm 110:3

Faith comes from the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You persist in this errant belief that somehow God mysteriously gives you a special kind of faith to belief, and yet you can't demonstrate it through the Word of God. Go to Romans 10:17.

Like I explained to you a few weeks ago....you keep returning to your error, because you cannot accept your narrow fundy views do not cover the whole topic.....so you try and drag the discussion back to what you think is true.

While I understand why you do this, the quicker you come to grips with the fact that you have strayed from the correct teaching and offer a shallow ,weak version that has as much error as it does truth ,the better off you will be.

And yes, the passage in Ezekiel 36 has nothing to do with NT salvation.

Most Christians know and understand differently. When Ezk. 36 was written it was future . The fact that God's design included elect gentiles grafted in was a surprise to Jews and evidently to you also:thumbsup:

Your dispy ideas betray you and all other dispys here. The rest of us get it however.

The passage is written to Israel, has to do with the future restoration of Israel in the Kingdom. Even the regathering of Israel is promised "in the land of their fathers," is stated so clearly that it cannot be applied to NT Christianity. Your allegorical interpretation of this passage is totally uncalled for and just muddies the water.

Nt. revelation like all revelation was progressively given. What was a one point a mystery is now revealed.
We are in the Kingdom now as it grows in the midst of it's enemies.

We learn about salvation in the NT. The saints of the OT were never presented with the gospel of Christ.

Certainly they were. Comments like this are why I learned if I was going to learn truth, I would need to flee from dispensationalism.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

I guess you forgot about that, or this;

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yes...you are playing the part of the fool and slow of heart to believe ALL the prophets have spoken:thumbsup:

So why are you still stuck on an OT message. If you can't present the gospel from the NT, then something is wrong.

DHK......I can present the gospel from all 66 books because I am not bound by the shackles of dispensationalism.....

In fact if you are not teaching Calvinism you are preaching or teaching a defective message.

I have consistently said (as I did previously--but apparently you ignored), that the work of the Holy Spirit is summed up in John 16:8-11.
That scripture still applies today.

That is a fine section of scripture, but it is not as specific as what is being discussed here...it does not get you off the hook....Your denials are already in print.

The fact that many Calvinists cannot give a clear-cut testimony of their salvation is truly sad.

All Cals can and do.

--a truly metaphysical statement.

It is all still a mystery to you.

 

[OldRegular]

I have offered you scripture as has O.R.....you cannot welcome it however and state that it has "no meaning" unless we give it meaning???? This is indeed strange fire you offer;
10 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.

Got this far and had to say it: Priceless!:thumbs:

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[Iconoclast]

[DHK

Now I said something close to that in my testimony, and Icon jumped on me saying that my salvation is not of God but all man-centered, coming close to calling me not saved. Why? Because I understood the Scriptures that were being explained to me. Why am I castigated for saying such a statement? In Icon's view I simply used the first person singular "I." Salvation is all of God, which I never denied.

Each time you say"salvation is all of God".....what you seem to mean by that statement is......The cross work . You always say the same thing...Jesus paid for sins. Everyone knows that and it is not even being disputed.

What cals mean by "salvation is all of God"...is that all of it feom eternity past to eternity future is all of God...election , the cross,foreknowledge, convicting,drawing, justification, sanctification, glorification..... is ALL of God.

That is the difference. You do not agree. That is why I jumped on your "testimony" which was a testament to DHK....not a testimony of God's grace.....it was...I did this, I did that, I did it all except the cross.

Read Icon's view of regeneration. It is all from Ezekiel 36. God does it all by exchanging your heart and sprinkling you with water. Totally incomprehensible.

It is totally the teaching that Nicodemus was supposed to know...he asked -

how can these things be???? you make the same statement.

This is what I am against. No belief; no faith; no Word of God. It is a mystical undefinable operation taken out of the OT from a passage which deals directly with Israel

.

EZK 36, jer.31 are for all Christians right now.....You deny this:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Got this far and had to say it: Priceless!:thumbs:

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:thumbs: we are on the same page Brother.:thumbs::1_grouphug: So is everyone else on the thread.....looks like one holdout.