Divine Illumination/ Divine Enablement

[DHK]

Perhaps I have a little more respect for the intelligence and Biblical understanding of the people on this forum.

You brag:

I don't brag, I teach.

It is quite obvious that you do not believe every verse in Ephesians chapter one. It is obvious that you don't believe Ephesians 1:3-7:

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

God chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. That is unconditional election DHK. Do you believe that?

The problem here is that the Calvinists use this portion, even the entire chapter to teach the ungodly doctrine of reprobation, and also that God hates the elect, both of which are abhorrent doctrines not only in the sight of man, but also in the sight of God.

Let's see what the passage really says:
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
--The word "blessed," is a word that means "praise" or "to speak well of." It is only used in reference to God. Thus praise should be given to "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is also an emphasis on the word "our" indicating our relationship with God. He is the Father of believers. This shows that believers belong to Christ. Everything we have comes from Christ. In fact this entire chapter shows us how the Father has blessed the believer in all things.
It is God that has blessed us with all spiritual blessings. Notice how Paul has defined who God is. He has defined him very carefully in verses 2 and 3 that there is no question that this is the triune Godhead. He can't be confused with Zeus, Allah, or any other god.
"He has blessed us with all spiritual blessings." The blessings have already been given. However, they need to be appropriated by faith. Salvation is like that. We don't need to pay the price. It has been paid. We need to appropriate it, receive it by faith. The same holds truth for the other blessings that our ours in Christ Jesus.
with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
These blessings are spiritual not earthly. They are heavenly blessings. They are blessings that are in Christ. They are blessings that are based on the triune Godhead.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--Jesus is called "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world."
Paul is first looking at the source of these blessings which is the work of Christ.
The first word of this verse is kathos. Here is what Thayer says:

kathōs
Thayer Definition:
1) according as
1a) just as, even as
1b) in proportion as, in the degree that
2) since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that
3) when, after that

Perhaps a better way to put it would be,
"Since he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..."
The blessings that God gives us is because he has chosen us before the foundation of the world. It is based on the work of Christ--the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Yes, it is true that election is God's sovereign work (He chose us) whereby He chose some to believe. And although it is an act of grace based on His will, a person still is responsible to believe.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
--It is through belief that you are chosen.

The purpose of that choosing is given:
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--What God has begun in the past will be completed in the future. The word "holy" is set apart for God. That is the purpose of his election.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The cause of predestination is given here: we are being adopted as full-fledged sons though Jesus Christ. Again notice that everything said here, every blessing mentioned, directly has to do with believers. Not one word is said about unbelievers. In adoption a son is brought into a family and is given the same rights as a child born into that family.
God has given us this blessing simply in accordance with the good pleasure of his will and for no other reason. That does not mean he does not love the non-elect. It does not mean he doesn't give them the opportunity to be saved.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
--The ultimate goal of election: To be to the praise of His glory. A similar expression is also found in verse 12. We need to ask ourselves are we fulfilling this purpose for which he has created us.
He has made us accepted in the beloved, that is "in Christ." What greater privilege is it than to be "in Christ." God has made us the object of his love.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
--It is in Christ we have redemption--the deliverance from a state of slavery.
This is the redemption from sin, and so the work of Christ delivers us from sin and slavery. The work of Christ also gives us "the forgiveness of sins." This results immediately upon deliverance from one's sin.
How is it all accomplished? "through his blood."
His blood satisfied God's justice.

Those are the verses you quoted. But it goes on. Verse six is repeated again in verse 12, and then in verse 13 it says:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
--It was all contingent on their belief. They had to accept the work of Christ by faith. This entire predestination was not based on caprice, but on love. It was according to God's plan. Those people who would praise him (vs. 12) are those people who would trust him, and God in his omniscience knew who those people were.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

So you see DHK you don't believe all of Ephesians 1. There is more you don't believe but enough for now.

I believe every word of the Bible.

 

[OldRegular]

How do Oneness Pentecostal's use the Scripture to disprove the Trinity?
How do the SDA use the Scripture to prove the annihilation of the wicked?
(hint: think "conditional hell")
How do J.W.'s use the Scripture to deny the deity of Christ?
--each group does. They give THEIR meaning to the scriptures.
That doesn't make ME blasphemous--a ridiculous assumption on your part.

Poor DHK! You castigate me because I post Scripture assuming that Christians on this BB are capable of interpreting Scripture. Of course some can't but I will not name you as one of them. Then you castigate the above poor people because They give THEIR meaning to the scriptures.

Now I agree wholeheartedly with the statement below. In fact anything without meaning is meaningless! That statement may make it to that World Book of records!

Scripture without meaning is meaningless.

However that is not your initial statement which has morphed in meaningless ways since it was first presented. In your post #88 you state:

The scripture remains meaningless until someone gives it meaning.

Of course the above statement in itself is false. Scripture is never meaningless or without meaning. However, a "true believer", a Saint, must be enlightened or led by the Holy Spirit to properly understand Scripture.

But you go your merry way believing what you choose.

 

[OldRegular]

I don't brag, I teach.

The problem here is that the Calvinists use this portion, even the entire chapter to teach the ungodly doctrine of reprobation, and also that God hates the elect, both of which are abhorrent doctrines not only in the sight of man, but also in the sight of God.

Let's see what the passage really says:
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
--The word "blessed," is a word that means "praise" or "to speak well of." It is only used in reference to God. Thus praise should be given to "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is also an emphasis on the word "our" indicating our relationship with God. He is the Father of believers. This shows that believers belong to Christ. Everything we have comes from Christ. In fact this entire chapter shows us how the Father has blessed the believer in all things.
It is God that has blessed us with all spiritual blessings. Notice how Paul has defined who God is. He has defined him very carefully in verses 2 and 3 that there is no question that this is the triune Godhead. He can't be confused with Zeus, Allah, or any other god.
"He has blessed us with all spiritual blessings." The blessings have already been given. However, they need to be appropriated by faith. Salvation is like that. We don't need to pay the price. It has been paid. We need to appropriate it, receive it by faith. The same holds truth for the other blessings that our ours in Christ Jesus.
with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
These blessings are spiritual not earthly. They are heavenly blessings. They are blessings that are in Christ. They are blessings that are based on the triune Godhead.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--Jesus is called "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world."
Paul is first looking at the source of these blessings which is the work of Christ.
The first word of this verse is kathos. Here is what Thayer says:

Perhaps a better way to put it would be,
"Since he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..."
The blessings that God gives us is because he has chosen us before the foundation of the world. It is based on the work of Christ--the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Yes, it is true that election is God's sovereign work (He chose us) whereby He chose some to believe. And although it is an act of grace based on His will, a person still is responsible to believe.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
--It is through belief that you are chosen.

The purpose of that choosing is given:
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--What God has begun in the past will be completed in the future. The word "holy" is set apart for God. That is the purpose of his election.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The cause of predestination is given here: we are being adopted as full-fledged sons though Jesus Christ. Again notice that everything said here, every blessing mentioned, directly has to do with believers. Not one word is said about unbelievers. In adoption a son is brought into a family and is given the same rights as a child born into that family.
God has given us this blessing simply in accordance with the good pleasure of his will and for no other reason. That does not mean he does not love the non-elect. It does not mean he doesn't give them the opportunity to be saved.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
--The ultimate goal of election: To be to the praise of His glory. A similar expression is also found in verse 12. We need to ask ourselves are we fulfilling this purpose for which he has created us.
He has made us accepted in the beloved, that is "in Christ." What greater privilege is it than to be "in Christ." God has made us the object of his love.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
--It is in Christ we have redemption--the deliverance from a state of slavery.
This is the redemption from sin, and so the work of Christ delivers us from sin and slavery. The work of Christ also gives us "the forgiveness of sins." This results immediately upon deliverance from one's sin.
How is it all accomplished? "through his blood."
His blood satisfied God's justice.

Those are the verses you quoted. But it goes on. Verse six is repeated again in verse 12, and then in verse 13 it says:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
--It was all contingent on their belief. They had to accept the work of Christ by faith. This entire predestination was not based on caprice, but on love. It was according to God's plan. Those people who would praise him (vs. 12) are those people who would trust him, and God in his omniscience knew who those people were.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

I believe every word of the Bible.

You still do not believe what Ephesians 1:3-7 is teaching no matter how you spin it!

 

[DHK]

Of course the above statement in itself is false. Scripture is never meaningless or without meaning. However, a "true believer", a Saint, must be enlightened or led by the Holy Spirit to properly understand Scripture.

But you go your merry way believing what you choose.

So you can agree with the J.W.'s that Jesus Christ is simply "the Son of God," and not deity, because that is the "meaning of Scripture," according to them.

The scripture remains meaningless until someone gives it meaning.

That is the statement you say is false.

The J.W. will copy and paste his scripture and deny the deity of Christ.

But your right I should have been a bit more clear.
In the context that that statement was made I should have said:

"In the light of OP, the scripture you post is meaningless unless you give it meaning."
or
"In light of our discussion, the scriptures you post are meaningless unless you give them meaning.
So you understand that concept yet?

You posted Ephesians 1:1-7 and made the silly accusation that I didn't believe it. That was a lie. The scripture you posted was meaningless because you didn't demonstrate what I didn't believe.

The same is true with almost all the rest of the scripture you have copy and pasted. It has no meaning because you don't give it meaning as it pertains to the subject at hand.

 

[OldRegular]

So you can agree with the J.W.'s that Jesus Christ is simply "the Son of God," and not deity, because that is the "meaning of Scripture," according to them.

Your arguments get more asinine and stupid and unChristian the more you comment. That is a low life statement. Far as I am concerned you should do everyone a favor and shut up! Furthermore you make the stupid argument that:

Originally Posted by DHK
The scripture remains meaningless until someone gives it meaning.

The JW's give it a meaning and you complain. Do you understand how nonsensical your statement which I quoted is. Scripture has only ONE CORRECT MEANING or it would not be the inerrant Word of God. Some people understand the correct meaning and others do not. Perhaps you belong in the others category.

*******************************************************

The scripture remains meaningless until someone gives it meaning.

That is a heretical statement but I expect your Roman Catholic upbringing has taken control of your mind.

**********************************************

That is the statement you say is false.

To say that the Word of God is meaningless is a blasphemous lie!

**************************************************

The J.W. will copy and paste his scripture and deny the deity of Christ.

Are you claiming I deny the deity of Jesus Christ. If so be more forthright then I will ask that you be banned for denying my salvation.

***************************************************

But your right I should have been a bit more clear.
In the context that that statement was made I should have said:

"In the light of OP, the scripture you post is meaningless unless you give it meaning."
or
"In light of our discussion, the scriptures you post are meaningless unless you give them meaning.
So you understand that concept yet?

I don't understand that meaningless rambling!

************************************************

You posted Ephesians 1:1-7 and made the silly accusation that I didn't believe it. That was a lie. The scripture you posted was meaningless because you didn't demonstrate what I didn't believe.

I did not post Ephesians 1:1-7. Check again. You obvioudly do not understand the passage I quoted since it teaches unconditional election which you claim to reject. If you have, through being enlightened by the Holy Spirit, come into the knowledge of the truth then sing out and we will rejoice.

**********************************************

The same is true with almost all the rest of the scripture you have copy and pasted.

I know! I know! you don't believe Scripture unless someone explains it to you. Where is the pope when DHK needs him!

*****************************************************

It has no meaning because you don't give it meaning as it pertains to the subject at hand.

Again you are falling back on your Roman Catholic upbringing DHK. You should know by now that Baptists don't have a pope. It is stupid and blasphemous to declare that the Word of God has no meaning unless man gives it meaning. Darby tried to do this and look what has happened to the pre-trib-dispensationalists; they don't know who the people of God are, the followers of Jesus Christ or the nation of Israel!

But you go your merry senseless way DHK believing whatever crosses your mind!

 

[DHK]

Again you are falling back on your Roman Catholic upbringing DHK. You should know by now that Baptists don't have a pope. It is stupid and blasphemous to declare that the Word of God has no meaning unless man gives it meaning. Darby tried to do this and look what has happened to the pre-trib-dispensationalists; they don't know who the people of God are, the followers of Jesus Christ or the nation of Israel!

But you go your merry senseless way DHK believing whatever crosses your mind!

All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

Here is an example that I gave before:

"...northward four a day, southward four a day, and toward Asuppim two and two. At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar."
--How meaningful is this to you?

 

[robustheologian]

All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

Here is an example that I gave before:

"...northward four a day, southward four a day, and toward Asuppim two and two. At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar."
--How meaningful is this to you?

I disagree. All scripture is meaningless unless one reads it in context. Scripture has meaning for anyone armed with the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who reads 1 Chronicles 26 would see this referencing the division of the appointed gatekeepers for the temple.

 

[OldRegular]

All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

DHK says that all Scripture has meaning but that Meaning is determined by man. For DHK to say that man must give Scripture its meaning is denying that Scripture is the Inerrant, Inspired Word of God but has whatever meaning man gives that. That is utter nonsense.

Such a claim means that the JW's, the SDA, the Mormons, the Word of Faith people, The Roman Catholics, and all others are equally orthodox, even the Muslims! Such a view is not only wrong it is simply stupid and is beyond belief that a Christian would promote that nonsense!

{ The emphasis in DHK's quote is mine. I do so because I believe people should see what he is saying. So far I am the only one challenging that statement. I believe the truth is presented in the following Quote by me!}

Scripture has only ONE CORRECT MEANING or it would not be the inerrant Word of God. Some people understand the correct meaning and others do not.

Many years ago Milton S. Terry laid down a basic hermeneutical principle that contemporary evangelicals have difficulty observing. That is the principle of single meaning:

A fundamental principle in grammatico-historical exposition is that the words and sentences can have but one significance in one and the same connection. The moment we neglect this principle we drift out upon a sea of uncertainty and conjecture.​

Not quite as many years ago, Bernard Ramm advocated the same principle in different words: “But here we must remember the old adage: ‘Interpretation is one, application is many.’ This means that there is only one meaning to a passage of Scripture which is determined by careful study.”

Summit II of the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy concurred with this principle: “We affirm that the meaning expressed in each biblical text is single, definite and fixed. We deny that the recognition of this single meaning eliminates the variety of its application.”

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj12c.pdf

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK says that all Scripture has meaning but that Meaning is determined by man. For DHK to say that man must give Scripture its meaning is denying that Scripture is the Inerrant, Inspired Word of God but has whatever meaning man gives that. That is utter nonsense.

Such a claim means that the JW's, the SDA, the Mormons, the Word of Faith people, The Roman Catholics, and all others are equally orthodox, even the Muslims! Such a view is not only wrong it is simply stupid and is beyond belief that a Christian would promote that nonsense!

{ The emphasis in DHK's quote is mine. I do so because I believe people should see what he is saying. So far I am the only one challenging that statement. I believe the truth is presented in the following Quote by me!}

I think people are no longer reading his posts.That would explain why there are no comments:thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

DHK, I will join with OldRegular in stating that I find your remark unorthodox and rather dumb;frankly.

To say that Scripture has no meaning unless someone gives it meaning --is actually an anti-scriptural statement. Even within your circles right thinking Christians would condemn your sub-biblical ideas.

You are no Fundamentalist, conservative or Evangelical with the sentiments you have dared to utter.

 

[Iconoclast]

The same is true with almost all the rest of the scripture you have copy and pasted. It has no meaning because you don't give it meaning as it pertains to the subject at hand.

As a neutral observer here...I understand exactly what O.R . means by posting those scriptures:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

OldRegular

There you go again DHK, spouting off meaningless drivel.

Yes...he is doing that again:thumbs:

It is bad enough to reject what I say but to reject what Scripture clearly states, blaming it on Muslims, is downright blasphemous!

ouch:thumbs:

I see you are waffling a little on your earlier statement
by inserting "context"!

damage control:thumbs:

SO Rant on DHK! Rant on!

:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

I disagree. All scripture is meaningless unless one reads it in context. Scripture has meaning for anyone armed with the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who reads 1 Chronicles 26 would see this referencing the division of the appointed gatekeepers for the temple.

Well, yes, that was my point. Context is one marker that gives meaning to a verse or passage. There are others: meanings of individual words, historical background, the author and his purpose of writing, the people who he is addressing, the time period, etc. All of these factors give meaning to the passage.

You found the verse in 1 Chronicles 26. From that alone you gain some meaning. From there you can study more. How far are you willing to go, or need to go, in your understanding of the passage?
"Anyone" cannot readily see the meaning of that passage.

And when responding to posts here, a simple copy and paste to someone's post, without any commentary "has no meaning." We all agree to the inspiration of scripture." But what does it mean? We both can "post" Ephesians chapter one. But that is not a proper response to a post, obviously. The meaning must be given.

There are two sides to a debate. If one isn't willing to explain their side there is no debate.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I will join with OldRegular in stating that I find your remark unorthodox and rather dumb;frankly.

To say that Scripture has no meaning unless someone gives it meaning --is actually an anti-scriptural statement. Even within your circles right thinking Christians would condemn your sub-biblical ideas.

You are no Fundamentalist, conservative or Evangelical with the sentiments you have dared to utter.

In the context of this discussion I did clarify it at least once.
I will say it again.

With reference to this thread (or my post), your scripture has no meaning unless you give it meaning. IOW, when an explanatory position is given, and then it is answered with a copy and paste passage of scripture, that particular scripture has no meaning unless it is explained. Copy and paste all you want, but that is not a defense for one's position unless the scripture is explained.

 

[robustheologian]

Well, yes, that was my point. Context is one marker that gives meaning to a verse or passage. There are others: meanings of individual words, historical background, the author and his purpose of writing, the people who he is addressing, the time period, etc. All of these factors give meaning to the passage.

You found the verse in 1 Chronicles 26. From that alone you gain some meaning. From there you can study more. How far are you willing to go, or need to go, in your understanding of the passage?
"Anyone" cannot readily see the meaning of that passage.

And when responding to posts here, a simple copy and paste to someone's post, without any commentary "has no meaning." We all agree to the inspiration of scripture." But what does it mean? We both can "post" Ephesians chapter one. But that is not a proper response to a post, obviously. The meaning must be given.

There are two sides to a debate. If one isn't willing to explain their side there is no debate.

I guess you're saying context rules...which it does. At least I hope that's all you're saying lol.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I don't brag, I teach.

Does not seem that many agree on that one:thumbs:

The problem here is that the Calvinists use this portion, even the entire chapter to teach the ungodly doctrine of reprobation,

Reprobation is a biblical teaching so...it cannot be ungodly.
They do not get the teaching from here anyhow.

and also that God hates the elect,

I have not heard Cals say that God hates the elect

both of which are abhorrent doctrines not only in the sight of man, but also in the sight of God.

you seem confused here...

Let's see what the passage really says:
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
--The word "blessed," is a word that means "praise" or "to speak well of." It is only used in reference to God. Thus praise should be given to "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is also an emphasis on the word "our" indicating our relationship with God. He is the Father of believers. This shows that believers belong to Christ. Everything we have comes from Christ. In fact this entire chapter shows us how the Father has blessed the believer in all things.

Yes the primary thing Paul is saying blessed be the God and Father for is unconditional ELECTION..resulting in all spiritual blessings to the elect...they are blessed, {happy}

"He has blessed us with all spiritual blessings." The blessings have already been given. However, they need to be appropriated by faith. Salvation is like that. We don't need to pay the price. It has been paid. We need to appropriate it, receive it by faith. The same holds truth for the other blessings that our ours in Christ Jesus.

The blessings are only found IN CHRIST....by those in saving Union to Christ.
This is the work of God .....the Spirit indwelling us having baptized us INTO Christ.

with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
These blessings are spiritual not earthly. They are heavenly blessings.

As Christ is reigning on the throne now,and our citizenship is in heaven, we are blessed in heaven and on earth as the Kingdom reign of the heavens has already invaded this earth and is conquering the enemies of God, day by day.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--Jesus is called "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world."
Paul is first looking at the source of these blessings which is the work of Christ.
The first word of this verse is kathos. Here is what Thayer says:

Perhaps a better way to put it would be,
"Since he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..."
The blessings that God gives us is because he has chosen us before the foundation of the world. It is based on the work of Christ--the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Yes, it is true that election is God's sovereign work (He chose us) whereby He chose some to believe. And although it is an act of grace based on His will, a person still is responsible to believe.

This quote agrees with O.R. 100%.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
--It is through belief that you are chosen.

Wrong as we were chosen before we believed...we were chosen in order that we would be made willing to believe.

The purpose of that choosing is given:
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God saves the whole man and conforms us to the Image of the Son....
It would be nice if the scriptures could make this clear ...in a verse or two, Oh wait they do-
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


whom, them, whom, them, whom them.......GOT IT

--What God has begun in the past will be completed in the future. The word "holy" is set apart for God. That is the purpose of his election.

Yes...so of the lump of unholy sinful humanity, the Divine potter elects some to honour, and some are left to dishonor.....he uses some and leaves the rest....Got it:thumbs:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The cause of predestination is given here: we are being adopted as full-fledged sons though Jesus Christ.

Yes...only the elect are adopted....the non elect "are not placed as sons"

Got it:thumbs:

Again notice that everything said here, every blessing mentioned, directly has to do with believers. Not one word is said about unbelievers. In adoption a son is brought into a family and is given the same rights as a child born into that family.
God has given us this blessing simply in accordance with the good pleasure of his will and for no other reason.

exactly what Cals teach; the 1689-

Chapter 12: Of Adoption

All those that are justified, God vouchsafed, in and for the sake of his only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption, by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of the children of God, have his name put upon them, receive the spirit of adoption, have access to the throne of grace with boldness, are enabled to cry Abba, Father, are pitied, protected, provided for, and chastened by him as by a Father, yet never cast off, but sealed to the day of redemption, and inherit the promises as heirs of everlasting salvation. ( Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:4, 5; John 1:12; Romans 8:17; 2 Corinthians 6:18; Revelation 3:12; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18; Psalms 103:13; Proverbs 14:26; 1 Peter 5:7; Hebrews 12:6; Isaiah 54:8, 9; Lamentations 3:31; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 1:14; Hebrews 6:12 )

That does not mean he does not love the non-elect. It does not mean he doesn't give them the opportunity to be saved.

It is not addressing them directly here. They do not receive the adoption of Sons.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
--The ultimate goal of election: To be to the praise of His glory. A similar expression is also found in verse 12. We need to ask ourselves are we fulfilling this purpose for which he has created us.
He has made us accepted in the beloved, that is "in Christ." What greater privilege is it than to be "in Christ." God has made us the object of his love.

This is only true of the Elect

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
--It is in Christ we have redemption--the deliverance from a state of slavery.
This is the redemption from sin, and so the work of Christ delivers us from sin and slavery. The work of Christ also gives us "the forgiveness of sins." This results immediately upon deliverance from one's sin.
How is it all accomplished? "through his blood."
His blood satisfied God's justice.

This is only true of the Covenant redemption...the L in tulip...yes,,,got it!

Those are the verses you quoted. But it goes on. Verse six is repeated again in verse 12, and then in verse 13 it says:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is a statement of fact of what happens when God saves the elect in time.

--It was all contingent on their belief.

No...not contingent, but definite and completed as the Spirit quickened them, as he explains in chapter 2

They had to accept the work of Christ by faith

.

No...They were made acceptable by God and faith is the God given instrumentality to lay hold of the finished work. God was not taking a poll to see if they accepted anything as the gospel was preached as a command.

This entire predestination was not based on caprice, but on love.

God's Covenant love for His people, those who He chose as the object of His love, while still in sin and unbelief....Not because of anything in them, as if dead sinners could believe anything....

It was according to God's plan. Those people who would praise him (vs. 12) are those people who would trust him, and God in his omniscience knew who those people were.

that is not what that verse says at all.....not then and not now!

I believe every word of the Bible.

Evidently not those that teach election and predestination as O.Roffered several times Acts 13:48

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK, I will join with OldRegular in stating that I find your remark unorthodox and rather dumb;frankly.

To say that Scripture has no meaning unless someone gives it meaning --is actually an anti-scriptural statement. Even within your circles right thinking Christians would condemn your sub-biblical ideas.

You are no Fundamentalist, conservative or Evangelical with the sentiments you have dared to utter.

He is confused and mis-posted, then when discovered went into damage control mode. What is as bad is his attemped explaining away of Eph 1, and when he quotes a link it goes against his own idea:laugh: Got to love it.:thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

In the context of this discussion I did clarify it at least once.
I will say it again.

With reference to this thread (or my post), your scripture has no meaning unless you give it meaning. IOW, when an explanatory position is given, and then it is answered with a copy and paste passage of scripture, that particular scripture has no meaning unless it is explained. Copy and paste all you want, but that is not a defense for one's position unless the scripture is explained.

The following is exactly what you posted DHK: {The emphasis is mine}

Originally Posted by DHK
All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

The above statement is clearly false. Perhaps subconsciously you are going back to your Roman Catholic roots where Scripture means what the "Teaching Magisterium" or the pope says it is. However, I provided a link to The Masters Journal, which I assume is connected to MacArthur's Masters College, that also states your understanding of Scripture is false. The referenced article is a good read for anyone on this BB.

Though you whine because I post Scripture without much comment I make no apologies. Most of the Scripture I post is clear in its meaning and I expect people on this BB to understand what it says. Sadly DHK, you reject anything that does not agree with your bias, even Scripture, and are too contrary to admit it!

As I noted earlier most, if not all, of the cults were created by using the same technique you insist on in interpreting Scripture. The founders of these cults give Scripture meaning, meaning which is false. That is consistent with your post which I repeat:

Originally Posted by DHK
All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

I will cut and paste one passage of Scripture which demonstrates how serious your error is! I hope you understand it. I take it out of context but I think the meaning is clear.

Judges 21:25. In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

But you go your merry way believing what you choose.

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[DHK]

The following is exactly what you posted DHK: {The emphasis is mine}

The above statement is clearly false. Perhaps subconsciously you are going back to your Roman Catholic roots where Scripture means what the "Teaching Magisterium" or the pope says it is. However, I provided a link to The Masters Journal, which I assume is connected to MacArthur's Masters College, that also states your understanding of Scripture is false. The referenced article is a good read for anyone on this BB.

In the context of this thread it has great meaning. The meaning of scripture is derived from its context. As mentioned from another observer "context rules."
Thus when I post my position clearly and succinctly and you answer with a simply copy and paste of scripture, the scripture is meaningless. It can be interpreted a number of ways. I believe the scripture also. You assume that you have an understood interpretation, and that is wrong. Unless you give meaning to that scripture it remains meaningless for you have not done your job in expounding or telling what the scripture means.

This goes directly to the purpose of this thread: illumination.
Perhaps you do not have the gift to illuminate the scriptures and therefore cannot. You simply copy and paste instead. No context is given. No explanation is given. Absolutely nothing!

Though you whine because I post Scripture without much comment I make no apologies. Most of the Scripture I post is clear in its meaning and I expect people on this BB to understand what it says. Sadly DHK, you reject anything that does not agree with your bias, even Scripture, and are too contrary to admit it!

It doesn't matter what you think about others. The onus is on you to make clear what the scriptures you post are saying.
How is a person regenerated.
The answer was given in this summation:
They are sprinkled with pure clean water in the unseen world. Their old stony heart is removed and new fleshly heart is given to them. At that time God's Spirit is given them. And that is regeneration.
--Such allegory might as well be a fairy tale. It is totally allegorical; it is OT parable given to the Israelites and never intended for the NT believer; it is prophetic and yet to be fulfilled.
And that Scripture was never given any meaning when quoted!!
It was assumed that one would know this mysterious mysticism quoted here.
Allegory is the rule in interpretation for you.

As I noted earlier most, if not all, of the cults were created by using the same technique you insist on in interpreting Scripture. The founders of these cults give Scripture meaning, meaning which is false. That is consistent with your post which I repeat:

No, that is not what cults do.
Cults give new and innovative meanings to scripture.
You ignore meaning altogether. You just post the scripture and assume everyone is on the same page; assume that everyone both understands (wrong), and everyone agrees (wrong). Two assumptions that should never be made in a debate.

I will cut and paste one passage of Scripture which demonstrates how serious your error is! I hope you understand it. I take it out of context but I think the meaning is clear.

Judges 21:25. In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

You see, that verse is so far out of context that you don't know what you are talking about. What were they doing in the time of the Judges.

Judges 21:21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.
--The Benjamites didn't have enough women to marry so it was decided that they should go the festival, the dance, and raid it. Every single man could kidnap his own wife.

Judges 19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

Yes you can judge me according to the times of the Judges. But you err not knowing the scriptures. And that is why, when you fail to explain the scriptures that you post, that you look foolish.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by DHK
All scripture has meaning. But it is meaningless unless one gives it meaning.

{Emphasis is mine.}

Basically what you are claiming is that the Word of God is useless. However, that Word which you think is useless disagrees with you.

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I believe that most knowledgeable Christians disagree with you, just as the Masters Journal disagrees with you, just as the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy disagrees with you. I suspect essentially all knowledgeable and conservative evangelical Christians also disagree with you. But as the link I posted states, those in the liberal camp, and I am sure most cults, agree with you: You, or they, determine what the Word of God means, not God.

Do you know why I always post Scripture in dark red DHK. Apparently it offends some people. I post in "dark red" because it reminds me that were it not for the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Word of God would be just what you say it is.

meaningless

I posted earlier something which you would do well to consider. I said that if it were not for the Grace of God no one could be saved. That Grace is not free, it cost the blood of Jesus Christ. That verse of Scripture I posted above is true because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

But you go your miserable way believing what you choose.

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