Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?

[Robert William]

If you say yes, then nobody will end up in Hell, because those who's sins have been atoned can't end up in Hell, if you say no, then there is no sacrifice and everybody ends up in Hell.

Condition before answering: First state yes or no, then give an answer, thanks.

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus Christ died only for the Elect!

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[Crabtownboy]

Jesus Christ died only for the Elect!

Who are the elect?

 

[RLBosley]

Should this be in the Cal/Arm forum?

Regardless...

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?
John Owen

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus Christ died only for the Elect!

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.....you hard head, can't you follow instructions?

 

[RLBosley]

If you say yes, then nobody will end up in Hell, because those who's sins have been atoned can't end up in Hell, if you say no, then there is no sacrifice and everybody ends up in Hell.

Condition before answering: First state yes or no, then give an answer, thanks.

BTW: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

 

[Iconoclast]

Who are the elect?

Those ordained to eternal life. Acts 13:48
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

They were wicked and ungodly sinners that God has purposed to save.

He saves everyone of them...not one will be lost. He is not willing that any of them perish, but that all will come to repentance.

In Jn 3 they are described as...EVERYONE BELIEVING.....and continuing to believe.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

Who are the elect?

Those for whom Jesus Christ died!

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[OldRegular]

.....you hard head, can't you follow instructions?

Comes from bumping my haid against the top, afore I got smart and left!

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[OldRegular]

Those ordained to eternal life. Acts 13:48
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

They were wicked and ungodly sinners that God has purposed to save.

He saves everyone of them...not one will be lost. He is not willing that any of them perish, but that all will come to repentance.

In Jn 3 they are described as...EVERYONE BELIEVING.....and continuing to believe.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Acts 13:48! A wonderful passage of Scripture that set me on the road to the truth about Salvation! I can still hear my Dad softly quoting that Scripture to me!

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[Walter]

Acts 13:48! A wonderful passage of Scripture that set me on the road to the truth about Salvation! I can still hear my Dad softly quoting that Scripture to me!

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1 Timothy 2:1-6 says,
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."
That's pretty explicit. It means just what it says. Christ died as a ransom for all, so limited atonement is false. God desires all men to be saved, so unconditional election and double predestination are false. Christ is a ransom for all, and God desires all to be saved. Many Calvinists struggle with this: how could an all-powerful God's will be thwarted? It's precisely because salvation must be freely accepted or rejected. God will not force someone to make a free choice. We see this quite clearly when Christ says to the people of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

 

[Robert William]

1 Timothy 2:1-6 says,
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."
That's pretty explicit. It means just what it says. Christ died as a ransom for all, so limited atonement is false. God desires all men to be saved, so unconditional election and double predestination are false. Christ is a ransom for all, and God desires all to be saved. Many Calvinists struggle with this: how could an all-powerful God's will be thwarted? It's precisely because salvation must be freely accepted or rejected. God will not force someone to make a free choice. We see this quite clearly when Christ says to the people of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

Sorry Walter, but scripture does not preach universal salvation. The natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, so why would he choose it?

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. :jesus:

Walter, read your Jerusalem Jerusalem scriptures again, Jesus is continuing to rebuke the Pharisees for not allowing their children to come to Him, Jesus is NOT begging for the Pharisees to come to Him!


Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[percho]

Does anyone know for sure?

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. V26

But every man in his own order: A. Christ the firstfruits; B. afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. V 23

Then cometh the end, (Of death?) C? when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. V24

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. V28

V55 YLT where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

 

[kyredneck]

...Condition before answering: First state yes or no, then give an answer, thanks.

Jesus Christ died only for the Elect!

***********************************************************************************************

.....you hard head, can't you follow instructions?

Comes from bumping my haid against the top, afore I got smart and left!

**********************

...dag nab, this whole bunch is a lot of hard heads....

 

[PreachTony]

Sorry Walter, but scripture does not preach universal salvation. The natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, so why would he choose it?

I don't think Walter is speaking of Universal Salvation in the sense that most people consider it (all people will be redeemed to God). Instead, he's pointing out the Salvation is available to all, but that man is free to accept or reject it.

 

[convicted1]

I don't think Walter is speaking of Universal Salvation in the sense that most people consider it (all people will be redeemed to God). Instead, he's pointing out the Salvation is available to all, but that man is free to accept or reject it.

Man's punishment was laid upon Christ when God bruised His very own Son. That wrath from God that should have been poured out on us was poured out upon His Son. I am sure we're in agreement here.

Now, it Christ paid for people's sins, if Christ's propitiation was for everyone who was ever in a womb...

--then what wrath is there to pour out?

--if Christ redeemed all men without exception, then why are people dying and going to hell?

 

[Robert William]

I don't think Walter is speaking of Universal Salvation in the sense that most people consider it (all people will be redeemed to God). Instead, he's pointing out the Salvation is available to all, but that man is free to accept or reject it.

Tony, it's not complicated, if you say Jesus Christ Atoned for all humans, then nobody could eventually end in up Hell, that's why I asked people to answer yes or no before they answered, either Christ Atoned for all humans or He did not.

Potential Atonement is not scriptural, if you are going to preach it you must prove it with scripture.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[PreachTony]

Tony, it's not complicated, if you say Jesus Christ Atoned for all humans, then nobody could eventually end in up Hell, that's why I asked people to answer yes or no before they answered, either Christ Atoned for all humans or He did not.

Potential Atonement is not scriptural, if you are going to preach it you must prove it with scripture.

I am not a Universalist in the sense I listed earlier. However, the alternative point of view offered by the Cal camp, that of Limited Atonement, is not something that I see in the scripture, either. Looking at the character and nature of God, revealed through Jesus Christ, does not show me limited atonement.

Otherwise, as Bro. Willis and I have discussed at length in other threads, we are left with a God who requires and commands all men everywhere to repent, yet withholds that ability from some men, but still blames them for not doing what He never allowed them to do in the first place. That, to my study, does not work with scriptures like Rev. 3:20, Rev 22:17, Matt 11:28-30, Matt 23:37, John 3:17-18, and many others.

Such is the nature of our varied interpretations of scripture. Under the model of limited atonement, with Election/Predestination being so certain in the Cal mind, then why strive so hard to preach? If God has already atoned for those who are Elect, then Paul's letter to the Romans is not necessary. Why bother telling people that they must believe, but must first hear the preached word before they can believe, if in the mind of the Cal, everything is already accomplished and God has already sealed those He Elected?

As to the "yes or no" aspect, sorry RW, but I don't like playing that game. It sets up a logical fallacy and attempts to over-simplify an issue with much more than just two facets.

 

[Robert William]

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[The American Dream]

1 Timothy 2:1-6 says,
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."
That's pretty explicit. It means just what it says. Christ died as a ransom for all, so limited atonement is false. God desires all men to be saved, so unconditional election and double predestination are false. Christ is a ransom for all, and God desires all to be saved. Many Calvinists struggle with this: how could an all-powerful God's will be thwarted? It's precisely because salvation must be freely accepted or rejected. God will not force someone to make a free choice. We see this quite clearly when Christ says to the people of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

Lots of problems here. One is Scripture does not contradict Scripture. Opinions do. Christ chose you, you did not choose Him. If Christ died for all men, and there is no election, then you assume that sinful man can respond to a Divine nature without outside intervention. How can you read Romans 1 and think we have the ability to accept or reject a call? In our flawed state, we do not care about a call. Your own verse betrays you. Since we have no ability to respond, why is it some are not willing? The chicks under the wings are the elect. While God desires for all to come to salvation, He does not choose all men. Everything works in perfect harmony, even those things that seem to contradict each other. Oh and by the way, don't your create your own strange form of TULIP by the fact you believe only those who are members of the RCC are saved?