Featured Is Arminianism heresy?

The "regeneration" is not the "New Birth" then point to a Bible text that says "regeneration".

If all you have is "I will DRAW ALL mankind to Me" as "regeneration' then you are playing word-games with "DRAW", using words that sound like 'NEW Creation" "born-again"

For example those who speak of "Baptismal regeneration" are saying something that everyone can understand even if we don't agree with them. But you are using the term in a slippery back-handed fashion.

If all you mean is "DRAW" - fine. stick with DRAW.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Father did not draw all sinners to Jesus, did he, while Jesus was upon the Earth?

And jas jesus ever lost anyone that He really saved?

If yes, who in the Bible?

 

Predestination and election has nothing to do with salvation or reprobation.
God never predestined or elected a single person to Hell. That is a false doctrine. You can't find it in the Bible.
Election is always used in the sense of the blessings that God has given to the believers. For example:

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
--Believers are chosen to be to the praise of the glory of his grace.
This is not talking about election, but rather our service to God.

 

The Bible says He did - and does.

You make "Draw" = to "SAVES" - while claiming it is not "new Birth".

I think you have a bit of a tangled web going there.

Stick with the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Election has nothing to do with reprobation. But predestination deals with election to eternal life and reprobation.

Again, election has nothing to do with reprobation. But God has indeed ordained or destined some to eternal condemnation.

The doctrine of reprobation is certainly taught in the Bible --you've just been blind to it.

See Pro. 16:4; Ro. 9:22,11:7; 2 Thess. 2:3 and Phil. 1:28 for starters. I have many more for you. But you have to digest these passages first. I don't want the meat of the Word to clog your throat.

Nonsense.
V.4 : For he chose us in him before the creation of the world...
V.5 : In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship...
V. 11 : In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Of course it is speaking of election. See also 2 Tim. 1:9c :...This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Take a look at Matt. 25:34:...Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

 

Just curious, Bob...are you protesting the OP?




God bless.

 

I am not stating here that God predestines the lost directly to go to Hell, as I do not hold to double predestination, but that God had from eternity past determined that all who rejected jesus to get saved would end up there in final judgement, and that God actively determined the elect to get saved by death of jesus, and He bypassed and allowed all others to get what they desired, away from Him for all eternity!

 

I do not believe you fully understand that this position puts you in direct conflict with the reformed position. This make you an "arminian".

 

No, rather it means that my position would be those holding to the Infra view on the decrees of the Lord, and not the Supra ones, as they would indeed hold to a double presentination!

 

This post is mostly semantics.
For example:
God has predestined some to eternal life.
God has elected some to eternal life.
Both (in the Cal's view) are used in the same sense. There is no difference here.

Of course it does. The word "elect" simply means "to choose" or "ordain," mere semantics.
God elected or chose some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation (reprobation).

No it isn't. Here is why:
1. God is love, and reprobation goes against his attribute of love.
2. Rebrobation logically makes God the author of sin--something you are blind to.

I don't need to read them. I recognize most of the references. You obviously want to make them mean something they don't. As I said the doctrine is not taught in the Bible. You are like our resident Catholic trying to teach Purgatory from the Scriptures. Like reprobation, it isn't there. It can't be done.

Every one of these verses are directed to those who have already become Christians. Not one of them speak of salvation vs. damnation.

Yes, election for the believer, not the unbeliever. The inheritance is the blessings that we have in Christ, just as I said. You are proving my statement to be true, not refuting it.
There is nothing in anything you said or quoted that states that God elected some to salvation and some to damnation.
Election always refers to the believer and the blessings of the believer, just as you quoted.

 

Again, you do not seem to realize the impact of what you posted.

 

You are mistaken Y1!

 

You don't read with comprehension. I do not disagree that election and predestination refer to those destined for eternal life.

However, election never refers to those who ultimately go to perdition.

Predestination is a broader term which can refer to the destiny of the elect and the desting of the eternally condemned.

God is indeed love. But that is not His sole attribute. He appoints some to eternal condemnation.

You are disgusting.

Pay attention. You need to see for yourself that it is taught in the Word of God.

Pro. 16:4 : The Lord works out everything to its proper end --even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Ro. 9:22 : What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath --prepared for destruction?

Ro. 11:7 : What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but others were hardened

2 Thess. 2:3 : Don't let anyonedeceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Phil. 1:28 : without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but you will be saved --and that by God.

1 Pe. 2:8 : ... They stumble because they disobey the message --which they were destined for.

2 Pe. 2:3 : ...their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Pe. 2:12 : ... They are...born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

2 Pe. 3:7 : By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

 

I am open to correction, so what would you see it as meaning then?

 

Not all calvinists have held to Double predestination though....

 

Mere semantics.
The Calvinist belief on election is:
God selects some for eternal life, and leaves the rest for eternal damnation. Obviously if they are left for eternal damnation they are elected to eternal damnation.
If I go into a house that is on fire where five children will die. I can only "select" two to be saved. Then three will perish. Two are elected. The other three perish by default. The difference between me and God is that God could if he wanted to, save the others. He has the power to do so. I only had the power to save two. God is omnipotent--all powerful. Therefore, on the basis of merely selecting some and leaving others, it makes God the author of sin.

God is not the author of sin because he has left man a choice. Man chooses to reject God, and in doing so sends himself to hell. God has given him that "free choice." He in his divine sovereignty has allowed man to choose between good and evil. He is not an animal that operates by instinct. He is able to make choices. He is made in the image of God.

Again, men send themselves to eternal condemnation. Why do you point the finger at God, as if it is his fault.

You don't have the spine, to stand up and state what a Calvinist really believes. You bow down and cower to others afraid that they will see the severity of what you believe and run off.
SBM has stated what you believe succinctly.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2210542&postcount=59

A day of disaster is not eternal damnation.
Did you know that an epidemic of the flesh-eating disease has broken out in a part of Syria that is held by ISIS (among the ISIS soldiers), and they don't allow doctors in!!
Yes, God's Word is true.

The key word is "What if" The statement is a hypothetical much like the first few verses of 1Cor.13. Paul said, "What if I give my body to be burned..."
But we know that Paul didn't give his body to be burned.
It doesn't say that God made anyone here to be objects of his wrath and prepared them for destruction. It is a hypothetical.

What is your point here? There is nothing about eternal damnation.
Israel rejected the Messiah during the first century. She remains blinded to the truth at this time. In the future she shall turn to the Messiah. This chapter speaks of the condition of Israel.

Get a better translation. This is speaking specifically about the Antichrist. We already know the outcome of this one who is going to lead the world in an outright rebellion against God. His outcome is already given in Rev.20:10.

You need a better translation:
Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
--Of course the adversaries of God, God's enemies who chose not to submit to Christ will suffer eternal perdition. Are you blaming God for that? No, it is their decision. Just as Satan stood against God in his rebellion, so do these.

All people who disobey the gospel will suffer the consequences of their own doing. You are not proving anything to me.

Speaking of the condemnation of false teachers.
I like verse one which speaks of the condemnation of Limited Atonement.
"False teachers who deny the Christ that bought them..."
All false teachers will get what they deserve. What are you trying to prove?

Yes, the same chapter, the same false teachers, the same punishment in more vivid detail. So?

And who denies this.
What have you proved? Nothing.

 

There you go on again with your diatribe against God accusing him of being the author of sin. You are disgusting.

Everyone is deserving of everlasting perdition. God has the right to condemn us all. Instead He has shown mercy to some as the Scriptures testify over and over again. He selects some and leaves others to perish in their sins. He has the right, the authority to do so --He's God! Nothing He does is sinful! Everything He does is perfect. How dare you accuse Him of being evil because He saves His elect and passes by the rest.

I do no such thing. There is no sin in God --no fault in Him. You however, well that's a different story.

People are fully accountable for their sins. If they do not repent and believe in the one and only Savior they will suffer the eternal consequences. Others who have never heard the Gospel will also go to Perdition for their sins.

I have been on the BB for almost 9.5 years. I have made many posts of my beliefs. I have not backed down one iota. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Do not attribute to me the beliefs of someone else who I have repeatedly made clear --I have some distinctly different views from that person.

Well, it sure isn't a bad hair day. It's Judgment Day.

It is true. It is as true as the "what if" of 9:23 :What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

The NIV does just fine.

What is true of the antChrist is true of all the reprobate --they are doomed for destruction.

The NIV is fine. You are a slave to tradition.

See, your patent dishonesty is plain to see here. You enjoy the lies you spew. I have not blamed God for anything. Stop lying about me. It's your way of operating. But dishonesty should not be characteristic of a believer. What kind of Christian are you, anyway?

Again, there is not one single Bible commentary you can point to which will support your wild and juvenile claim regarding 2 Peter 2:1.

Every reprobate, false teacher or not, has condemnation long hanging over them.But their destruction is only a matter of time.

 

Someone here needs to grow in years beyond the equivalent of their shoe size.

 

Wow, what a devastating, cogently-worded rebuttal.

 

No diatribe; simply an explanation of the Scriptures that obviously you cannot answer, or more accurately your Calvinism has no answer for.

I don't accuse God of evil at all. But Calvinism does. Get that straight. If I have to dig up some sources I will. You already have one (SBM). There are plenty of others.
The belief that "he selects some to eternal life and leaves others to perish in their sins" is indeed making God the author of evil. You simply don't see through your own beliefs. You don't take them to their own conclusion.

The better question to be asking is: "On what basis does he select some to be saved?"
On what basis do others go to hell?
Here is what you are missing:
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
Foreknowledge is to know before hand, as in omniscience. He doesn't force us to do anything but he knows what we will do because of his omniscience. He knows before hand the decision we will make. He doesn't make it for us.

When it comes to salvation it is the individual who decides to trust Christ or reject him. God has not made that decision. He simply knows what that decision will be. He has given man the will to make the decision. It is according to his foreknowledge; omniscience. He knows beforehand.

Therefore election is based on one's decision to trust Christ or reject Christ. God knows ahead of time. It is based on one's decision for Christ--not God's random selection. (You will object to my description of Calvinism but you have never described it any other way).

You say God sends people to hell.
That is an evil thing to do isn't it, especially when God gives them the chance to hear, the chance to repent, and even the will to repent. If they could repent even, they would go to hell anyway because they are predestined to go to hell. That is evil. It is based on evil. It is making a promise and then denying the promise.

Absolutely people are accountable for their sins. They are accountable for whether or not they rejected or received Christ as Savior.

But not willing to admit that the five tenets of Calvinism leads to God being the author of sin. At least SBM does that much.

When I said "you" I mean "you" as in "you Calvinists." IOW, the Calvinists believe that God is the author of sin IF they take their beliefs to a logical conclusion. That is all I am saying. So don't get your tights all in a knot.

The kind of "judgment" depends upon the context.

That is more acceptable. God does all things for his glory. There is nothing "in his glory" about selecting some for hell.
However Paul demonstrated how Pharaoh was used to demonstrate the glory of God as the Lord used Moses to deliver Israel out of the hand of Pharaoh.

Of course they are. Who said otherwise?

Why all the vitriol? What did I say that set you off? I basically agreed with you.
Here is what I said:
Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

--Of course the adversaries of God, God's enemies who chose not to submit to Christ will suffer eternal perdition. Are you blaming God for that?
--I never disagreed with the interpretation of the verse. The disagreement that we have is the basis of "why" the unregenerate suffer eternal perdition.
You say that God elects them to be eternally damned (for no reason). IMO, that makes God the author of evil.
I believe they go to hell based on their rejection of Christ. God knows beforehand (1Pet.1:2) which decision they will make.

Yes there are.

John Wesley

I don't disagree with that statement.