Featured Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

In Apocalyptic Literature you need to understand what the Believers in A.D. 90's would believe they saw the Emperors as the beast and the dragon as satan, therefore they understood that the beast was a literal Emperor. The heads of the dragon as John described were literal nations that made up the Emporer's realm of authority the crowns were those in authority over them. But they would have understood these would be literal leaders over the earth.

They understood the woman was Israel and that her man child that was taken up to Heaven was none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. They would have understood the wings of eagles too, for we see,
Isaiah 40:31 "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

By God's strength and protection Israel would escape the attack of the Dragon satan as they understood satan to be the dragon.

The thing is they understood all of it as Prophecy that would be literally fulfilled.

Now to the Daniel portion.

So do you believe Daniel to be liar or Jesus not to be the Messiah?

Daniel 9:27 Daniel saw seventy weeks.

But what does He say about them?

Daniel 9:24-26 Seventy weeks were determined for Israel to complete before the Messiah would come and reign in His kingdom.

So if those are literal weeks and then Jesus would have come as they were returning to the Land. That didn't happen.

The Messiah would come when 7 + 3 score and 2 weeks had occurred after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. That would be 69 weeks.

If the weeks equal 7 years then 69 weeks would equal 483 years and Messiah would come and be cut off.

so if Jesus is and He is the true Savior and Messiah He came exactly 483 years after the decree to rebuild the city and He was cut off. 62 weeks so 7 weeks 49 years the city would be rebuilt and complete then following 434 years after the completion was the Messiah to be cutoff.

That would leave one week literally unfulfilled.

It happened just as Daniel’s prophecy said it would. Christ came and ministered for three and a half years and then He was cut off, crucified.

We see that week in Revelation 6-19 of Revelation. That is the only place it could occur.

To deny that the 70 weeks are actually weeks of 7 years would make DAniel a liar and someone else the Messiah. Maybe the Messiah was Nehemiah or Ezra as their return to Jerusalem fit the 70 week time period if they were true weeks. Scripture bears it out.
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You can out do LaHaye in his Left Behind fiction series!

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

Each verse perfectly shows the Pre-Trib rapture for those who have an open mind and are seeking for the Lord to reveal to them the truths of Scripture.

I've been a believer for 52 years and have studied the word, heard both sides and the Spirit guided me to the Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view. It fits without having to twist teaching to make it fit.

For the amil view you must twist 1 Thessaloninas 4:16-17
16"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

and add for the amil view to fit what John says in Revelation 20:11-15
11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

While skipping over Revelation 6:17
And skipping Revelation 7-19.

Then you would need to also skip
Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

You have to exclude where Jesus shows John the 1000 period in verses 5 and 7, for the amil view you must exclude the 1000 year kingdom.
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There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

contd.

Now for the Pre-Trib view to work you need to understand
1 Thessalonians as exactly what Paul says a harpazo, a snatching or catching away.
1 Corinthians 15:52-58,
51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."

Both show a snatching away of the Church by Christ, the Corinthians passage shows how there is a mystery which others had not seen how we will be changed when we are snatched away. Nothing skipped.

Twice Paul use the word BEMA for the believer facing Christ,

Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:10-11,
10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

For the amil view to work we must place the BEMA seat judgment at this point:

Revelation 20:11-15,

11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Yet we see no believers at the Great White Throne in fact Revelation 20 shows just the opposite.
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There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
__________________

revmwc · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Those Churches are in the "THINGS THAT ARE" phase of the Book of Revelation, that you pre-trib-dispensationalism boast about as the key to understanding, and therefore are long gone!

The wrath that Paul is talking about in Romans 5:9 is eternal damnation. Don't you have any idea what Salvation is?

Pathetic!
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I told you way back what salvation was. Salvation is from the Second Death, we kept from eternal separation from God.

Revelation 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death".

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20:14-15, 14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

Revelation 21:7-8, 7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

We who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and call upon HIM will not suffer the second death that is eternal seperation from God. The Resurrection to life that occurs for believes keeps us from the second death that is we will not be eternally seperated from God.

We are not condemned Jesus said.

So yes I have a very good grasp of what salvation is do you?

revmwc · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
__________________
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So why don't you go and put your interpretation of these verses to show us how YOU interpret them. BTW that means your from your knowledge not form Ink or Pink or Hokeystra but your own as the Holy Spirit gave you apart from what you have read from man.

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

The Pre-Trib view shows:

The 24 elders crowned in Revelation 4 and representing the church as Matthew Henry taught.
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It is an outright lie to say Matthew Henry taught a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

revmwc said: ↑

1st Corinthians 3:11-15,

11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

You see once a person has their foundation in Jesus by Grace through Faith they begin to build rewards. Those rewards are based upon their works or lack there of for Christ. The only place we see anything resembling Gold silver and precious stones being given to the church would be Revelation 4 with the elders crowned, it fits. The Amil view contains no such place where this occurs.

We see that must be explained for the amil view to work,

Revelation 19:7-10,
7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Now where has the Bride been during the events of chapters 6-19. Jewish weddings had the bride coming to the Bridegrooms house a week before the wedding and preparing her dress and herself for the marriage. A feast occurred during this time and when the right moment came at the end of the week the marriage vows were taken.
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Those believers who were dead were in heaven. Those believers who were alive and constitute the Church were on earth.! There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
__________________

revmwc said: ↑

We see this occur perfectly in Revelation 4 and then 19, with the wrath of God occurring on earth with the whole world.

If the Bride was caught up in Revelation 4 and the 7 year period is the last week of Daniels 70 weeks it fits perfectly with a pre-trib rapture. The Amil view can't do that, but scripture is very clear in the marriage of the Bride that is the church and Christ the Bridegroom before He returns in Revelation 19 verses 11-14,
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Nonsense!

revmwc said: ↑

11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Christ returns with His bride in her fine linen clean and white.
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This is a picture of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ followed by the General Resurrection and judgment of John 5:28, 29!

revmwc said: ↑

Where as a general resurrection as the amil teach can show none of what these passage show.
A general resurrection skips the BEMA seat judgment that the Judgment seat of Christ and it is different from the Great White throne judgment where the rest of the dead come before him after the 1000 years.
The Amil, General Ressurection skips the Marriage of the Lamb to the Bride the Church in Revelation 19 and His then Return to the Earth to conquer the Armies of the world. It skips the Believers seated upon thrones.

Jesus made a Promise in Matthew 19:28,

28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Jesus Promise was yet again seen in Luke 22:29-30,
29 "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

There would be a physical Kingdom and throne involving Israel, Jesus made it very clear and Revelation 20 shows that Kingdom.
Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The first Resurection is completed at the end of the Tribulation.

The Second and final Resurrection takes place 1000 years later, scripture is clear. The rest of the dead that is those who have died physically and who will die the second death that is eternal separation from God occurs 1000 years after the first is complete.
The Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view bears it all out. The amil view is wanting in all of this.

so after 52 years of salvation and years of study the Pre-TRib and Pre-Mil view for me are born out by scripture, the Amil view is wanting.
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Then you have wasted 52 years of study. You should have taken off your Darbyite glasses!

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

I told you way back what salvation was. Salvation is from the Second Death, we kept from eternal separation from God.

Revelation 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death".

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20:14-15, 14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

Revelation 21:7-8, 7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

We who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and call upon HIM will not suffer the second death that is eternal seperation from God. The Resurrection to life that occurs for believes keeps us from the second death that is we will not be eternally seperated from God.

We are not condemned Jesus said.

So yes I have a very good grasp of what salvation is do you?
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I understand that Jesus Christ did not died for a Church that is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel. But then I think the Darbyite doctrine is false.

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

So why don't you go and put your interpretation of these verses to show us how YOU interpret them. BTW that means your from your knowledge not form Ink or Pink or Hokeystra but your own as the Holy Spirit gave you apart from what you have read from man.
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I have said that I was not seduced by the doctrine of Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, Walvoord, or any other pre-trib-dispensational teacher or preacher. Most pre-trib-dispensationalists on this Forum falsely insist that they came to their understanding simply through private Bible study. That is utter nonsense. There are too many Baptist preachers and teachers who have been seduced by Darbyism not to have exerted influence on those who hear them!

revmwc · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

It is an outright lie to say Matthew Henry taught a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Those believers who were dead were in heaven. Those believers who were alive and constitute the Church were on earth.! There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
__________________

Nonsense!

This is a picture of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ followed by the General Resurrection and judgment of John 5:28, 29!

Then you have wasted 52 years of study. You should have taken off your Darbyite glasses!
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Well let me tell you a little story, our family was attending a church where we received very little Bible Teaching. My Dad who was saved out of Catholocism prayed that God would guide Him to the truth and Gos honors a man's prayers when He sincerely request God's guidance.

God sent Him from a church with no teaching to a church rich in Teaching and Dad found that the Pre-Trib view was correct. From His earnest Prayer for truth He was lead to this teaching, do you believe God would let a man who had no deep teaching and earnestly prayed for the truth would be allowed to find non-truth? The bible doesn't support that. Next the Pastor I was raised under. Saved out of Catholosism earnestly sought God's will to show him the truth, God called him to become a pastor, earnest fervent prayer to ensure he taught the truth and he too saw the Pre-Trib view as being the truth.

Do you really believe that true men of God would fall for a lie after asking the Lord to Guide them to the truth through fervent prayer. So no I haven't wasted 52 years and I believe in a God who honors the fervent prayers of the Righteous.

revmwc · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

I have said that I was not seduced by the doctrine of Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, Walvoord, or any other pre-trib-dispensational teacher or preacher. Most pre-trib-dispensationalists on this Forum falsely insist that they came to their understanding simply through private Bible study. That is utter nonsense. There are too many Baptist preachers and teachers who have been seduced by Darbyism not to have exerted influence on those who hear them!
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In other words without those men's commentaries you cannot break those verses down with the guidence of the Holy Spirit to fit your philosophy. Yet I read 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and the Lord speaks and says that is a verse showing the church will not go through the Tribulation. No commentary just reading it and it jumps out with that meaning. That would be the Holy Spirit revealing the truth to me.

revmwc · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

I understand that Jesus Christ did not died for a Church that is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel. But then I think the Darbyite doctrine is false.
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So you finally admit the Parenthesis doctrine you've been exposing here isn't true and you agree with me and the others that the church was always in god's plan, maybe now you will begin to see the other truths.

DHK · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
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Why do you persist in this?
None of us follow Darby, or have read his works.
You have been warned already.

DHK · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
__________________
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So you repeat the same thing over again. Is it because you can't answer his scripture? Pitiful!

DHK · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

It is an outright lie to say Matthew Henry taught a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Those believers who were dead were in heaven. Those believers who were alive and constitute the Church were on earth.! There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
__________________

Nonsense!

This is a picture of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ followed by the General Resurrection and judgment of John 5:28, 29!

Then you have wasted 52 years of study. You should have taken off your Darbyite glasses!
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You just can't stop accusing others of being followers of Darby when they aren't. These are false accusations.

DHK · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

I understand that Jesus Christ did not died for a Church that is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel. But then I think the Darbyite doctrine is false.
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Do you know how to debate?
Why are you even here OR?

DHK · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

I have said that I was not seduced by the doctrine of Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, Walvoord, or any other pre-trib-dispensational teacher or preacher. Most pre-trib-dispensationalists on this Forum falsely insist that they came to their understanding simply through private Bible study. That is utter nonsense. There are too many Baptist preachers and teachers who have been seduced by Darbyism not to have exerted influence on those who hear them!
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What is this? #6?
When will it stop?

Yeshua1 · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

There has not been a single passage of Scripture presented on this Forum that supports a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church unless it is read through the false doctrine of Darbyism!
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The purposes of the great tribulation still yet to come upon this earth were to have God judge and destroy all the lingdome of man in order to clear the way for jesus kingdom at his return, and to be the time of Jacobs Folly, where God would be dealing with isreal one more time in order to prepare her to meet her God and receive jesus as her messiah!

No need for the church to remain here, as paul stated that the holy spirit was now thru the church keeping antichrist from appearing, but once the church departs....

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

Yeshua1 said: ↑

The purposes of the great tribulation still yet to come upon this earth were to have God judge and destroy all the lingdome of man in order to clear the way for jesus kingdom at his return, and to be the time of Jacobs Folly, where God would be dealing with isreal one more time in order to prepare her to meet her God and receive jesus as her messiah!

No need for the church to remain here, as paul stated that the holy spirit was now thru the church keeping antichrist from appearing, but once the church departs....
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Jesus Christ did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Matthew did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Mark did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Luke did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

John did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Paul did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Peter did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

James did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not taught in Scripture!

Yeshua1 · May 5, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Jesus Christ did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Matthew did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Mark did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Luke did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

John did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Paul did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Peter did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

James did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not taught in Scripture!
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Jesus and paul taught it, and God foreshadowed that in Enoch, but you are so rigid in our views, that you cannot see it evn when its clear as looking at the Sun!

And you still have no reason why the great tribulation period needs the church to stay in it!

OldRegular · May 5, 2015

Yeshua1 said: ↑

Jesus and paul taught it, and God foreshadowed that in Enoch, but you are so rigid in our views, that you cannot see it evn when its clear as looking at the Sun!

And you still have no reason why the great tribulation period needs the church to stay in it!
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Then post the Scripture!

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