amil vs pre-trib- pre-mil

[revmwc]

Okay guess why is it when we have post concerning a pre-mil- pre-trib discussion that it seems as if the amil group decides to high jack with things which have nothing to do with the OP. Could it be they can't support their view. Then when they do make a statement it is that of calling the pre-trib group darbyites or label a post as a lie or false and yet offer no rebuttal.

Then when the pre-tribbers- pre-mil folks post teachings from A.D. 150 -350 they are told produce scripture. Again scripture has been produced and shown in post after post. Then to show someone before the man they claim began the pre-trib, dispensational view they demand scripture knowing they've had both and all this after they already brought up side issues to fill up the thread so it can end.

What say you folks why would this happen when these threads are for discussions on these issues not for them to high-jack?

 

[McCree79]

I was raised pre-trib. Of course that eschatology is based on scripture. However Idealism(Amill), and post-trib(pre-mill) have scripture to support their belief as well. I have been explored Amill.. They have some very valid ideas. I acknowledge they could be right. Especially with the view of the millennium. I think the pre-trib and Post-trib crowds have a better interpretation of the "sea" beast, 7 heads, man of lawlessness, etc..... At this point in my walk I would best fit with the post trib crowd. That being said, I could argue a pretty good case for any of the 3 I mentioned. I dont see this a topic to get "fired up" about. It is fun to debate, but it shouldn't cause a rift. Who knows....maybe the partial preterists are right

*as far as Darby goes. He is credited with the Dispensational belief. I won't contest that. Doesn't mean that the early church 4,5,6 centuries and so on didn't lose their way on the "last days". I think most of us would agree that they lost their way on believers baptism.

 

[revmwc]

I was raised pre-trib. Of course that eschatology is based on scripture. However Idealism(Amill), and post-trib(pre-mill) have scripture to support their belief as well. I have been explored Amill.. They have some very valid ideas. I acknowledge they could be right. Especially with the view of the millennium. I think the pre-trib and Post-trib crowds have a better interpretation of the "sea" beast, 7 heads, man of lawlessness, etc..... At this point in my walk I would best fit with the post trib crowd. That being said, I could argue a pretty good case for any of the 3 I mentioned. I dont see this a topic to get "fired up" about. It is fun to debate, but it shouldn't cause a rift. Who knows....maybe the partial preterists are right

*as far as Darby goes. He is credited with the Dispensational belief. I won't contest that. Doesn't mean that the early church 4,5,6 centuries and so on didn't lose their way on the "last days". I think most of us would agree that they lost their way on believers baptism.

The recognized church of the 4th-13th, century lost their way on Believers baptism. The underground church groups Waldenes and other some did and some didn't.

 

[McCree79]

The recognized church of the 4th-13th, century lost their way on Believers baptism. The underground church groups Waldenes and other some did and some didn't.

Correct. That is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[revmwc]

Correct. That is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.

Not a problem.

 

[OldRegular]

Okay guess why is it when we have post concerning a pre-mil- pre-trib discussion that it seems as if the amil group decides to high jack with things which have nothing to do with the OP. Could it be they can't support their view. Then when they do make a statement it is that of calling the pre-trib group darbyites or label a post as a lie or false and yet offer no rebuttal.

Then when the pre-tribbers- pre-mil folks post teachings from A.D. 150 -350 they are told produce scripture. Again scripture has been produced and shown in post after post. Then to show someone before the man they claim began the pre-trib, dispensational view they demand scripture knowing they've had both and all this after they already brought up side issues to fill up the thread so it can end.

What say you folks why would this happen when these threads are for discussions on these issues not for them to high-jack?

The title of your thread is misleading.

The only thing that pre-trib-dispensationalism and Covenant/historic premillennialism have in common is an earthly millennial reign. Even there the difference is substantial since Covenant premillennialism teaches Jesus Christ reigns with HIS Church during this period whereas pre-trib-dispensationalism teaches that Israel will be dominant during this period!

Both Covenant/historic premillennialism and amillennialism teach the Biblical view of the Church whereas pre-trib-dispensationalism teaches the blasphemous doctrine of the Church as a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel.

 

[revmwc]

The title of your thread is misleading.

The only thing that pre-trib-dispensationalism and Covenant/historic premillennialism have in common is an earthly millennial reign. Even there the difference is substantial since Covenant premillennialism teaches Jesus Christ reigns with HIS Church during this period whereas pre-trib-dispensationalism teaches that Israel will be dominant during this period!

Both Covenant/historic premillennialism and amillennialism teach the Biblical view of the Church whereas pre-trib-dispensationalism teaches the blasphemous doctrine of the Church as a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel.

you seem to be the only who in every post brings up the parenthesis church. You must really believe it exist! Because Everything that involves mankind concerning God was planned by God and known of God before the foundation of the world.

 

[OldRegular]

you seem to be the only who in every post brings up the parenthesis church. You must really believe it exist! Because Everything that involves mankind concerning God was planned by God and known of God before the foundation of the world.

Educate your self, read what your own theologians teach:

Following are remarks by three prominent Classic Dispensationalists, Chafer, Ryrie, and Ironside. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Charles C. Ryrie is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary He is also the author of the Ryrie Study Bible.

"But for the Church intercalation -- which was wholly unforeseen and is wholly unrelated to any divine purpose which precedes it or which follows it. In fact, the new, hitherto unrevealed purpose of God in the outcalling of a heavenly people from Jews and Gentiles is so divergent with respect to the divine purpose toward Israel, which purpose preceded it and will yet follow it, that the term parenthetical, commonly employed to describe the new age-purpose, is inaccurate. A parenthetical portion sustains some direct or indirect relation to that which goes before or that which follows; but the present age-purpose is not thus related and therefore is more properly termed an intercalation" [emphasis added] (Chafer, Systematic Theology, 4:41; 5:348-349).


Charles Ryrie says the same thing: "Classic dispensationalists used the words 'parenthesis' or 'intercalation' to describe the distinctiveness of the church in relation to God's program for Israel. An intercalation is an insertion of a period of time in a calendar, and a parenthesis in one sense is defined as an interlude or interval (which in turn is defined as an intervening or interruptive period). So either or both words can be appropriately used to define the church age if one sees it as a distinct interlude in God's program for Israel (as clearly taught in Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks in 9:24-27)" [emphasis added] (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.134).

Then there are the remarks of Harry A. Ironside former pastor of the Moody Memorial Church in Chicago. The quote is from the preface to his book, The Great Parenthesis.

The contents of the present volume are really an enlargement of lectures on Bible prophecy that have been given at various conferences during the past few years. It was never convenient to have these stenographically reported at the time of their delivery, and so the substance of the addresses has been very carefully gone over and is now presented for the consideration of those who are interested in the revelation which the Spirit of God has given concerning things to come.It is the author's fervent conviction that the failure to understand what is revealed in Scripture concerning the Great Parenthesis between Messiah's rejection, with the consequent setting aside of Israel nationally, and the regathering of God's earthly people and recognition by the Lord in the last days, is the fundamental cause for many conflicting and unscriptural prophetic teachings. Once this parenthetical period is understood and the present work of God during this age is apprehended, the whole prophetic program unfolds with amazing clearness.

http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword-...t-parenthesis/

I must state as forcefully as I can that I find the doctrine of the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, as a parenthesis or an intercalation, in God’s program for Israel to be not only repugnant. but blasphemous, and I reject it completely. Now many pre-trib-"snatching away" folks will be disturbed but the truth is that the concept of the Church as a "parenthesis" in Gods program is the direct result of the pre-trib doctrine of John Nelson Darby. Whether dispensationalists want to acknowledge it or not the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church came out of the womb of John Nelson Darby's pre-trib-dispensational doctrine!

 

[blessedwife318]

Well in references to the OP I am Pre-mill but you have not made a compelling case for the pre-trib aspect. But so far I have been mostly ignored in pointing out that while pre-mill has support of the early church it takes a lot more reading into to show a pre-trib view.

 

[revmwc]

Educate your self, read what your own theologians teach:

Following are remarks by three prominent Classic Dispensationalists, Chafer, Ryrie, and Ironside. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Charles C. Ryrie is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary He is also the author of the Ryrie Study Bible.



Then there are the remarks of Harry A. Ironside former pastor of the Moody Memorial Church in Chicago. The quote is from the preface to his book, The Great Parenthesis.



I must state as forcefully as I can that I find the doctrine of the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, as a parenthesis or an intercalation, in God’s program for Israel to be not only repugnant. but blasphemous, and I reject it completely. Now many pre-trib-"snatching away" folks will be disturbed but the truth is that the concept of the Church as a "parenthesis" in Gods program is the direct result of the pre-trib doctrine of John Nelson Darby. Whether dispensationalists want to acknowledge it or not the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church came out of the womb of John Nelson Darby's pre-trib-dispensational doctrine!

The church was not an intercalation nor a parenthesis. It was in God's plan as was the Snatching away of the church in His plan and the Tribulation was in His plan following removal of the Bride.

God planned it all because of His Omniscience. He knew Adam and Eve would fall, He knew He would have to destroy mankind all but the eight who found grace in the eyes of the Lord. He knew Israel would rebel and have to wander 40 years, and then go into the Promised Land. He knew the first dispersion would take place and the second, but both He planned to bring them back into the. Land. He knew that Israel would reject Jesus and planned for the Gentiles to be given custody of the Gospel and that would be His church, while Israel would be His chosen people or nation. He all these things so the church is not a Parenthesis never has been never will be. That teaching doesn't lesson the Pre-Trib rapture view when it is omitted. scripture still lines up perfectly with a Pre-Trib Rapture, followed by the time of God's wrath.

That wrath all the plagues and vials and things must occur in order to redeem all creation that is currently groaning. All these things all the plagues like the plagues on Egypt are to bring redemption of the earth that is all creation. Once the Tribulation is over and Christ brings in His Kingdom we see the fulfillment of the redemption of all creation and we see in the Kingdom this, Isaiah 11:1-9. 1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 "And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

All creation goes back to pre-fall conditions in His Kingdom and He reigns from Jerusalem over all the earth for 1000 years. 1000 years of peace even between the Animals with the Great Creator ruling and Reigning on the earth.

 

[OldRegular]

Well in references to the OP I am Pre-mill but you have not made a compelling case for the pre-trib aspect. But so far I have been mostly ignored in pointing out that while pre-mill has support of the early church it takes a lot more reading into to show a pre-trib view.

I am amillennial but many of the Puritans and Church fathers of the reformation were premillennial, John Gill, Isaac Watts, Matthew Henry. The most important distinction between pre-trib-dispensationalism and premillennialism is the doctrine of the Church.

The pre-trib doctrine demands that the Church be a "parenthesis", an intercalation in GOD's program for Israel. Premillennialism makes no such demands about the Church. Rather their view is the Biblical view and the same as both amillennial and postmillennial!

I can recommend several books that might be helpful to you at this time:

John P. Newport. The Lion and The Lamb 
The book is written by a Southern Baptist and former dispensationalist. Though he is premillennial I highly recommend it! The book includes much good information on the various interpretations of the Book of Revelation and is very easy to read.

Anthony A. Hoekema. The Bible and The Future This book is not a commentary on Revelation but a discussion of eschatology. It includes a comparison of the various millennial views. This is an excellent book for anyone interested in expanding his understanding of eschatology. Hoekema places much emphasis on the New Heavens and New Earth as the eternal home of the Redeemed!

Sam Storms. Kingdom Come This book is subtitled The Amillennial Alternative. It is not a commentary on Revelation but a discussion of eschatology. I bought it after recommendation by someone on this BB. Am about one third the way through and have learned some things I did not know before. It is not particularly easy to read, not from the standpoint of theological jargon, but he does not write as well as some. Nevertheless I believe you will find it very useful!

 

[robustheologian]

The pre-trib doctrine demands that the Church be a "parenthesis", an intercalation in GOD's program for Israel.

There goes that word again lol

But this is true...I would say that it is impossible to be Reformed and pre-trib.

 

[OldRegular]

There goes that word again lol

But this is true...I would say that it is impossible to be Reformed and pre-trib.

I believe Dr. Bob is!

 

[robustheologian]

I believe Dr. Bob is!

I would love to hear the explanation on that.

 

[blessedwife318]

I am amillennial but many of the Puritans and Church fathers of the reformation were premillennial, John Gill, Isaac Watts, Matthew Henry. The most important distinction between pre-trib-dispensationalism and premillennialism is the doctrine of the Church.

The pre-trib doctrine demands that the Church be a "parenthesis", an intercalation in GOD's program for Israel. Premillennialism makes no such demands about the Church. Rather their view is the Biblical view and the same as both amillennial and postmillennial!

I can recommend several books that might be helpful to you at this time:

John P. Newport. The Lion and The Lamb 
The book is written by a Southern Baptist and former dispensationalist. Though he is premillennial I highly recommend it! The book includes much good information on the various interpretations of the Book of Revelation and is very easy to read.

Anthony A. Hoekema. The Bible and The Future This book is not a commentary on Revelation but a discussion of eschatology. It includes a comparison of the various millennial views. This is an excellent book for anyone interested in expanding his understanding of eschatology. Hoekema places much emphasis on the New Heavens and New Earth as the eternal home of the Redeemed!

Sam Storms. Kingdom Come This book is subtitled The Amillennial Alternative. It is not a commentary on Revelation but a discussion of eschatology. I bought it after recommendation by someone on this BB. Am about one third the way through and have learned some things I did not know before. It is not particularly easy to read, not from the standpoint of theological jargon, but he does not write as well as some. Nevertheless I believe you will find it very useful!

Kingdom Come has been on my wish list for a long time now. I have read the sample on my Kindle and thought it would be a good read but I can't afford it at the moment. Someday I will add it to my shelf.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

 

[robustheologian]

Kingdom Come has been on my wish list for a long time now. I have read the sample on my Kindle and thought it would be a good read but I can't afford it at the moment. Someday I will add it to my shelf.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

Have you taken a look at Kingdom Through Covenant by Gentry and Wellum?

 

[revmwc]

The pre-trib doctrine demands that the Church be a "parenthesis", an intercalation in GOD's program for Israel. Premillennialism makes no such demands about the Church. Rather their view is the Biblical view and the same as both amillennial and postmillennial!

This statement is not true of all Pre-Tribbers. Many on here disagree with you on that.It doesn't demand a parenthesis church.

God planned the church as much as He planned the flood and the crucifixion of Christ. In eternity past. You have been shown by most every pre-tribber that you are perptrating a falsehood concerning the pre-trib view. Yet as I stated you must be the one who believes that because you are the only proponent of it having to be accepted in order to have a dispensational view, I reject your assumption. And I have many post where I have stated my view as have others, so how long will you continue to misrepresent what dispensatioanl, pre-tribulation doctrine is. It stands alone as a truth without the teaching of a parenthesis view or an incalation view. It was always in Gods plan and therefore cannot be a parenthesis church. It is the Lord's Church established upon Peter's bold declaration that Jesus was the Christ the savior of the world.

 

[revmwc]

There goes that word again lol

But this is true...I would say that it is impossible to be Reformed and pre-trib.

What is meant by reformed. The pre-trib view stands alone without teaching a parenthesis church, I for one had not heard of a parenthesis church in my over 49 years of learning it and understanding those words never came forth. Yet I am pre-trib dispensationalist who believes god planned the church in Eternituy past just as He planned the Crucifixion of Christ and the flood of Naoh. Nothing surprised Him and nothing was a parenthesis for Him.

 

[OldRegular]

Kingdom Come has been on my wish list for a long time now. I have read the sample on my Kindle and thought it would be a good read but I can't afford it at the moment. Someday I will add it to my shelf.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

Unless you can navigate your Kindle better than I can I would recommend the print version. I can handle fiction on Kindle but for serious reading where I want to go back I prefer the printed version.

 

[blessedwife318]

Unless you can navigate your Kindle better than I can I would recommend the print version. I can handle fiction on Kindle but for serious reading where I want to go back I prefer the printed version.

I agree I would get it in hard copy but I wanted to motivations bit to see of it was worth the money and the only way I could do that was getting the sample on my kindle.

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