Featured The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

You are being quite hypocritical. In post 7 you said:

"The God made evident through the lens of Calvinism is a duplicitous deity."

And...

"The God found in Calvinism is very much a vicious monster."

Don't pretend to be a victim when you are casting slurs.

My post 5 was brief enough for you to deal with line-by-line if you have the wherewithal to do so.

 

How is my statement wrong? Your fellow Cals here have even said that "repentance is a gift from God" ergo, man cannot repent unless God grants him the ability to repent, yet God commands all men everywhere to repent. Unless you really want to mangle the scripture further and say that "all men everywhere" only means "the Elect," then you have to admit it is a duplicitous statement from God (if Calvinism is the true theology). God tells us that He hates a double-minded man, yet per your theology His own commands are double-minded (demands repentance, never gives it, then blames man for never doing what He would not allow them to do).

Fine, here...

Yes, I do. I would offer you scripture, but I've read elsewhere that anytime a non-Calvinist offers scripture it is nothing more than "proof-text." Great job, Cals, you've set up a roadblock to stop argument against your position.

See my response a little further down.

1 Timothy 2:4 states that God would have all men to be saved. You say that He does not want all men to be saved. Ask yourself this question: Whose word will I trust more: yours, or the Bible's?

Psalm 19 and Romans 1 both provide scriptural evidence that God has revealed Himself to everyone. He is evident even in nature. The ones that He hardens, as you say, are revealed in Romans 1:28 as those that "did not like to retain God in their knowledge." God, seeing their hardness and rejection, turned them over to a reprobate mind. According to you, and other Cals, God hardens and blinds them before they ever even had a chance. That's the exact opposite order of things shown in the Bible. If you want to use Pharaoh as a example, then you have to also admit that Pharaoh was hardened against God before God hardened him further.

I would not begin to say that I know every thought of the mind of God. I'm not willing to relegate someone to Hell simply because they died before Jesus came. Calvinism has to be such a depressing theology, as it states that so many, the vast majority, of Creation are doomed to eternal damnation with no hope of salvation.

 

I have said the same thing countless times.

Of course, that is what the Bible clearly declares.

It is the moral obligation for all people everywhere to both repent and believe.

No, it means all people.

You are reasoning like a pagan --or, more precisely like a Pelagian. They reasoned that if God doesn't give the ability thenn people are relieved of the obligation. But Scripture plainly states that it is a command of God.

It means all kinds of people --from all walks and stations of life scattered throughout earth.

But those "revelations" do not save --it just adds to their condemnation.

The parables that Jesus spoke were to hide and not disclose saving truths. The Lord does not want certain ones in his kingdom. Being mortals, none of us know which ones. We are to proclaim His Word freely to all.

But it is certainly true that the Lord hides himself from some. He doesn't know them.

Actually it's the other way around.

An innumerable host will be saved. But the Scriptures also teach that broad is the way of destruction. Many enter through it. It also says in Matthew 7:14 :"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (NIV)

 

Here's the context around those verses.

Nothing in that states that "all men" means "all kinds of people --from all walks and stations of life scattered throughout earth." How do you come to the rationalization that you do?

 

Exactly!

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:9,10
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18,19
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10,11

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

Was it the blood of Jesus that justified you before God the Father or is it what you believe about the blood of Jesus that will justify you before God the Father?

Were you given the Holy Spirit by which you can confess that Jesus is Lord because the faith came that you heard about (see Gal 3:2,14,22,23, and 25) or were you given the Holy Spirit, because of what you believe and thereby you can confess that Jesus is Lord?

Did you choose God or did God choose you?

 

Yes, some say things that are out of line, and I have been guilty of that in times past. But let us move 'onwards & upwards', mon ami. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

He is the only One who we can worship, and the only way is through the Spirit and Truth.

And the same would be say to those who see things differently than we do. But either way, we need to be careful with how we approach each other in a debate and/or discussion.

Coming out from your ranks, I can see the errors you hold, the very errors I once held, the ones that any non-cal who has came to the Calvinist's side of theology. Those who have went from Cal to non-cal will say the same thing. In either camp rocks are going to be hurled, monsieur, it just a matter of trying to avoid being 'conked' on the tête.

But the same thing is hurled at us, mon ami. We get accused of making God out to be a cruel monster, a Puppeteer, and other things. That sword cuts both ways, monsieur.

 

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?[Rom. 2:4] Here Paul is stating that God's kindness, and not man's ability to, leads to repentance. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.[2 Cor. 7:10] Again, a 'Godly sorrow', so where does this 'Godly sorrow' come from? Look up 'Godly' and 'sorrow' in a Greek concordance and see what they mean, mon ami. It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.[Rom. 9:16] Again, here is another example of it being based solely upon God. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.[John 1:11-13] The ones who He gave 'the right to become children of God were those who were 'not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. It took the birth of the Spirit FIRST for them to become the children of God.

All men everywhere means all men everywhere. God has told people to do things they can not do, monsieur. Look at the Jews and the Law. They were required to keep it and died by not. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to 'go and sin no more'(KJV rendering) so you think Jesus was merely suggesting that? Was she able 'to go and sin no more'? No. But she was commanded to nonetheless.

No they are not double minded, monsieur. Where did you read God hates a double-minded man? I read in James 1:8 they are 'unstable in all they do'.

Give them to me, please.

Yet God desires all to be saved, and many go to hell? God gets 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’[Ez. 33:11] Gods has commanded everybody without exception to repent, but not all do. You think that is cruel, I understand. How do you reconcile Jesus always being the 'Center of His Father's attention', yet He bruised Him, slaughtered Him, poured out His wrath upon Him while He was dying upon the cross? There are some things that are just too deep for us to truly comprehend, mon ami.

Most everybody knows there is a 'god', monsieur. The Islamists, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, Muslims, et all all believe in 'god', but not the God of the bible. God is revealed in natural revelation, but only revealed to His sheep via regeneration.

Then how can they call upon Him, if they have not heard the How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Rom. 10:14-17] People can not believe in God without the Spirit, monsieur. Those who never truly knew who God is, will perish in their sins. If someone died without Christ, will they go to heaven?

Au contraire mon frère! I was on the way to hell when Christ saved me. That is not depressing in the least, but very humbling. I was running from Him, and NOT towards Him when He sought me out. What is depressing is that, in regards to your theology, is that no matter how hard God tried to save someone who died lost, even after all the witnesses sent to them, all the sermons they heard, all the loved ones who spoke to them about Christ, after all of that, they died lost. God tried to save them, but He failed. He did His part, they just would not do theirs. That is truly a sad theology. :tear:

 

PreachTony

(Icon questioned if I had been drinking),

I asked if you had been drinking because you attacked Rippon and questioned if he worshipped God....I did not say you were drunk...don't say I said it is I did not.

If you are going to speak about me quote the whole sentence....not your made up ideas...you were answered here;
btyrippon-

stop playing the martyr. You attacked ...you got answered

are you saying we do not worship God? how else can you explain your statement? are there two Gods...as your statement suggests?

.

What if that is true?

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When you deny what he says{election for example} what do you want us to say?

you do it again here.

everyone is not in agreement with you.

 

yes ..others have noticed this:thumbsup:

yes :wavey:

yes....i think you are right:laugh:

It is like a pattern:laugh:

 

DHK gave this quote from Dave Hunt.

Where is the 'grace and love' if God has not provided salvation for anyone? Man has the free choice of whether to trust in Christ or not, but he will not take it. And this is not because God actively prevents people from trusting in Christ; there is no one saying to himself, "How I wish I could believe but I.....just.....can't.......do it!" No! People do not believe because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). If God did not elect some to salvation, no one would ever be saved. 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalm 14:2-3).

Inability is not physical, it is moral and spiritual. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). I know the wickedness of my own heart. If God had not irresistibly drawn me to Christ, I would never have come (John 6:44). Praise God for irresistible grace! No hope without it!

 

Why not read the book of Acts and see why some came to Christ and others didn't. For example, on the Day of Pentecost there were about 100,000 present. Only 3,000 were saved. What happened to the other 97,000? With all the spiritual manifestations, the miracles, the sermon by Peter, the obvious conviction of the Holy Spirit ("Men and brethren what shall we do?"). Why didn't more get saved? They "resisted" the Holy Spirit. Others "chose" of their own free will to receive Christ. They were not forced to do so. There was no irresistible grace forcing them to receive Christ and be saved. It was their decision to do so.

A person does not get saved because he chooses not to get saved, not because God forces him one way or another. That would be cruelty.
In John 3:19, Jesus is the light who came into the world--the sinless perfect lamb of God. Sinful ungodly men run away from His Light. But others are attracted to it. John the Baptist said: "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." He pointed his disciples to Jesus and they followed him. They had not yet become followers of Christ, but they were attracted to the Light. So were Andrew, Peter and John. Not ALL men are condemned by the Light. Some are attracted to it. The statement is a general statement about mankind, not an absolute. Don't take such statements out of context simply because of your Calvinism.

Again, context. What is the verse really saying.
Psa.14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
--David is speaking about the ungodly--the fool.

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
--It is the fool, the ungodly that don't understand and seek God. That is who God is looking down upon. That is the context.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--Does "all mean all" here? Had David also "gone aside? No.
This refers to the ungodly fools that had gone aside and had altogether become filthy. They were the ones that did no good, not even one of them.

As verse one opens the context verse four furthers the context and completes it:
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
--Between verses one and four are 2 and 3. They are the ungodly fools also referred to here as "workers of iniquity."

There is no such thing as Total Inability.
There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace.
Neither concept can be proven through scripture.

 

:applause:.....the effectually called believer always rejoices in the truth of the grace of God. :applause:
Millions have experienced this irresistible grace in their lives throughout church history.;

 

Beautiful words, and full of biblical truth(s). :applause:

 

The thing is, no one other than the other side of the debate uses the words force, fantoche, marionnettiste, et, cruel monstre. God effectually calls, and in this calling, He equips them with all the necessaries, such as faith and repentance. No force necessary, He gives life to whosoever He wills.

 

Correct once again.

Good solid posting brothers.....quite refreshing!