The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[Rippon]

DHK - Thanks, but it's alright. Since I recently made comments in opposition to Calvinism I've been told that I have a venomous heart and I've inadequately studied the Word. I'm okay with this. Thankfully not all Cals act this way.

You are being quite hypocritical. In post 7 you said:

"The God made evident through the lens of Calvinism is a duplicitous deity."

And...

"The God found in Calvinism is very much a vicious monster."

Don't pretend to be a victim when you are casting slurs.

My post 5 was brief enough for you to deal with line-by-line if you have the wherewithal to do so.

 

[Protestant]

I do worship God, and I worship the God that I find revealed in scripture and I find in the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I do not see the God Calvinism claims to see, but according to the Cals that because I'm not sound in my Biblical study.

Tony, your honesty and sincerity is not to be questioned.

What we are questioning is your common sense.

For example, according to your theology and that of your compatriots:

1. God loves all men worldwide equally.

2. God is not willing for any man to perish.

3. God foreknows the choices all men will make.

4. Those He foresees who choose Christ are predestined to salvation.

5. God does not predestine men to Hell.

Here are my questions:

1. Based on the fact that God is immutable, did God love those He drowned in the Flood, including women, children, infants, the elderly and disabled?

2. Does our immutable God love those residing in Hell awaiting the Lake of Fire and its accompanying eternal torments?

3. If God is not willing for any man to perish and yet most perish, do you not see how that is an apparent contradiction to His claim that ‘none can stay His hand,’ i.e. none can overrule His sovereign will.

4. Since God foreknows the choices all men make, He obviously knows which men make the wrong choice. That being the case:

a. Why does He not rethink the circumstances, heritage, etc., which cause many to reject Christ, changing whatever needs to be changed, so that they, like their successful counterparts who accept Christ, will also accept Christ? Or is that a challenge too great for our God?

b. Since God sincerely loves all men equally, why not use His foreknowledge to not create those whom He loves yet knows will reject Christ and ultimately be thrown into the Lake of Fire? Would it not be more loving to not create them in the first place? What kind of love tortures for eternity those He loves?

5. Since God predestines salvation for those He foresees will choose Christ, how is it not predestination to Hell for those He foresees will not choose Christ? Do the reprobates have the chance to change their destiny? If so, then would it not prove that God’s foreknowledge is inaccurate and He does not know the future with infallible accuracy?

Tony, these are just a few of the issues which separate our side from your side.

I look forward to your responses and/or the responses of your supporters.

 

[PreachTony]

You are being quite hypocritical. In post 7 you said:

"The God made evident through the lens of Calvinism is a duplicitous deity."

And...

"The God found in Calvinism is very much a vicious monster."

Don't pretend to be a victim when you are casting slurs.

How is my statement wrong? Your fellow Cals here have even said that "repentance is a gift from God" ergo, man cannot repent unless God grants him the ability to repent, yet God commands all men everywhere to repent. Unless you really want to mangle the scripture further and say that "all men everywhere" only means "the Elect," then you have to admit it is a duplicitous statement from God (if Calvinism is the true theology). God tells us that He hates a double-minded man, yet per your theology His own commands are double-minded (demands repentance, never gives it, then blames man for never doing what He would not allow them to do).

My post 5 was brief enough for you to deal with line-by-line if you have the wherewithal to do so.

Fine, here...

So you think Christ died for each and every person who ever existed and shall exist.

Yes, I do. I would offer you scripture, but I've read elsewhere that anytime a non-Calvinist offers scripture it is nothing more than "proof-text." Great job, Cals, you've set up a roadblock to stop argument against your position.

Christ did not pray for the each and every. He died for the elect alone. He prayed for his disciples who his Father gave him "out of this world." And he prayed (and consequently died for) those who will believe in him.

See my response a little further down.

Does he accomplish all that he desires? The answer is of course. All are not saved. His intent was to save his own and them alone.

1 Timothy 2:4 states that God would have all men to be saved. You say that He does not want all men to be saved. Ask yourself this question: Whose word will I trust more: yours, or the Bible's?

Do you think he wants to save those he blinds and hardens? Do you think he wants to save those who he does not reveal himself to?

Psalm 19 and Romans 1 both provide scriptural evidence that God has revealed Himself to everyone. He is evident even in nature. The ones that He hardens, as you say, are revealed in Romans 1:28 as those that "did not like to retain God in their knowledge." God, seeing their hardness and rejection, turned them over to a reprobate mind. According to you, and other Cals, God hardens and blinds them before they ever even had a chance. That's the exact opposite order of things shown in the Bible. If you want to use Pharaoh as a example, then you have to also admit that Pharaoh was hardened against God before God hardened him further.

Do you think he wanted to save all those already in perdition before he was even incarnated?

I would not begin to say that I know every thought of the mind of God. I'm not willing to relegate someone to Hell simply because they died before Jesus came. Calvinism has to be such a depressing theology, as it states that so many, the vast majority, of Creation are doomed to eternal damnation with no hope of salvation.

 

[Rippon]

Your fellow Cals here have even said that "repentance is a gift from God" ergo, man cannot repent unless God grants him the ability to repent,

I have said the same thing countless times.

yet God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Of course, that is what the Bible clearly declares.

It is the moral obligation for all people everywhere to both repent and believe.

Unless you really want to mangle the scripture further and say that "all men everywhere" only means "the Elect,"

No, it means all people.

then you have to admit it is a duplicitous statement from God (if Calvinism is the true theology). God tells us that He hates a double-minded man, yet per your theology His own commands are double-minded (demands repentance, never gives it, then blames man for never doing what He would not allow them to do).

You are reasoning like a pagan --or, more precisely like a Pelagian. They reasoned that if God doesn't give the ability thenn people are relieved of the obligation. But Scripture plainly states that it is a command of God.

1 Timothy 2:4 states that God would have all men to be saved. You say that He does not want all men to be saved.

It means all kinds of people --from all walks and stations of life scattered throughout earth.

Psalm 19 and Romans 1 both provide scriptural evidence that God has revealed Himself to everyone. He is evident even in nature.

But those "revelations" do not save --it just adds to their condemnation.

The parables that Jesus spoke were to hide and not disclose saving truths. The Lord does not want certain ones in his kingdom. Being mortals, none of us know which ones. We are to proclaim His Word freely to all.

But it is certainly true that the Lord hides himself from some. He doesn't know them.

Calvinism has to be such a depressing theology,

Actually it's the other way around.

as it states that so many, the vast majority, of Creation are doomed to eternal damnation with no hope of salvation.

An innumerable host will be saved. But the Scriptures also teach that broad is the way of destruction. Many enter through it. It also says in Matthew 7:14 :"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (NIV)

 

[PreachTony]

1 Timothy 2:4 states that God would have all men to be saved. You say that He does not want all men to be saved. Ask yourself this question: Whose word will I trust more: yours, or the Bible's?

It means all kinds of people --from all walks and stations of life scattered throughout earth.

Here's the context around those verses.

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Nothing in that states that "all men" means "all kinds of people --from all walks and stations of life scattered throughout earth." How do you come to the rationalization that you do?

 

[steaver]

How is my statement wrong? Your fellow Cals here have even said that "repentance is a gift from God" ergo, man cannot repent unless God grants him the ability to repent, yet God commands all men everywhere to repent. Unless you really want to mangle the scripture further and say that "all men everywhere" only means "the Elect," then you have to admit it is a duplicitous statement from God (if Calvinism is the true theology). God tells us that He hates a double-minded man, yet per your theology His own commands are double-minded (demands repentance, never gives it, then blames man for never doing what He would not allow them to do).

Exactly!

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[percho]

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:9,10
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18,19
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10,11

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

Was it the blood of Jesus that justified you before God the Father or is it what you believe about the blood of Jesus that will justify you before God the Father?

Were you given the Holy Spirit by which you can confess that Jesus is Lord because the faith came that you heard about (see Gal 3:2,14,22,23, and 25) or were you given the Holy Spirit, because of what you believe and thereby you can confess that Jesus is Lord?

Did you choose God or did God choose you?

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK - Thanks, but it's alright. Since I recently made comments in opposition to Calvinism I've been called a drunk (Icon questioned if I had been drinking), I've been told that I "hate God" (Icon again), and I've been told that I have a venomous heart and I've inadequately studied the Word. I'm okay with this. They said much worse about my Lord and Savior.

Yes, some say things that are out of line, and I have been guilty of that in times past. But let us move 'onwards & upwards', mon ami. :thumbsup:

I do worship God,

:thumbsup:

and I worship the God that I find revealed in scripture and I find in the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

He is the only One who we can worship, and the only way is through the Spirit and Truth.

I do not see the God Calvinism claims to see, but according to the Cals that because I'm not sound in my Biblical study.

And the same would be say to those who see things differently than we do. But either way, we need to be careful with how we approach each other in a debate and/or discussion.

Which is what it seems so often to come down to with them. "You don't know God because you haven't properly studied."

Coming out from your ranks, I can see the errors you hold, the very errors I once held, the ones that any non-cal who has came to the Calvinist's side of theology. Those who have went from Cal to non-cal will say the same thing. In either camp rocks are going to be hurled, monsieur, it just a matter of trying to avoid being 'conked' on the tête.

It doesn't matter how much of your life you've dedicated to studying the Word and praying for the Spirit's guidance, unless you believe in their God you simply have not studied enough. Thankfully not all Cals act this way.

But the same thing is hurled at us, mon ami. We get accused of making God out to be a cruel monster, a Puppeteer, and other things. That sword cuts both ways, monsieur.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How is my statement wrong? Your fellow Cals here have even said that "repentance is a gift from God" ergo, man cannot repent unless God grants him the ability to repent, yet God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?[Rom. 2:4] Here Paul is stating that God's kindness, and not man's ability to, leads to repentance. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.[2 Cor. 7:10] Again, a 'Godly sorrow', so where does this 'Godly sorrow' come from? Look up 'Godly' and 'sorrow' in a Greek concordance and see what they mean, mon ami. It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.[Rom. 9:16] Again, here is another example of it being based solely upon God. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.[John 1:11-13] The ones who He gave 'the right to become children of God were those who were 'not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. It took the birth of the Spirit FIRST for them to become the children of God.

Unless you really want to mangle the scripture further and say that "all men everywhere" only means "the Elect," then you have to admit it is a duplicitous statement from God (if Calvinism is the true theology).

All men everywhere means all men everywhere. God has told people to do things they can not do, monsieur. Look at the Jews and the Law. They were required to keep it and died by not. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to 'go and sin no more'(KJV rendering) so you think Jesus was merely suggesting that? Was she able 'to go and sin no more'? No. But she was commanded to nonetheless.

God tells us that He hates a double-minded man, yet per your theology His own commands are double-minded (demands repentance, never gives it, then blames man for never doing what He would not allow them to do).

No they are not double minded, monsieur. Where did you read God hates a double-minded man? I read in James 1:8 they are 'unstable in all they do'.

Yes, I do. I would offer you scripture, but I've read elsewhere that anytime a non-Calvinist offers scripture it is nothing more than "proof-text." Great job, Cals, you've set up a roadblock to stop argument against your position.

Give them to me, please.

See my response a little further down.


1 Timothy 2:4 states that God would have all men to be saved. You say that He does not want all men to be saved. Ask yourself this question: Whose word will I trust more: yours, or the Bible's?

Yet God desires all to be saved, and many go to hell? God gets 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’[Ez. 33:11] Gods has commanded everybody without exception to repent, but not all do. You think that is cruel, I understand. How do you reconcile Jesus always being the 'Center of His Father's attention', yet He bruised Him, slaughtered Him, poured out His wrath upon Him while He was dying upon the cross? There are some things that are just too deep for us to truly comprehend, mon ami.

Psalm 19 and Romans 1 both provide scriptural evidence that God has revealed Himself to everyone. He is evident even in nature. The ones that He hardens, as you say, are revealed in Romans 1:28 as those that "did not like to retain God in their knowledge." God, seeing their hardness and rejection, turned them over to a reprobate mind. According to you, and other Cals, God hardens and blinds them before they ever even had a chance. That's the exact opposite order of things shown in the Bible. If you want to use Pharaoh as a example, then you have to also admit that Pharaoh was hardened against God before God hardened him further.

Most everybody knows there is a 'god', monsieur. The Islamists, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, Muslims, et all all believe in 'god', but not the God of the bible. God is revealed in natural revelation, but only revealed to His sheep via regeneration.

I would not begin to say that I know every thought of the mind of God. I'm not willing to relegate someone to Hell simply because they died before Jesus came.

Then how can they call upon Him, if they have not heard the How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Rom. 10:14-17] People can not believe in God without the Spirit, monsieur. Those who never truly knew who God is, will perish in their sins. If someone died without Christ, will they go to heaven?

Calvinism has to be such a depressing theology, as it states that so many, the vast majority, of Creation are doomed to eternal damnation with no hope of salvation.

Au contraire mon frère! I was on the way to hell when Christ saved me. That is not depressing in the least, but very humbling. I was running from Him, and NOT towards Him when He sought me out. What is depressing is that, in regards to your theology, is that no matter how hard God tried to save someone who died lost, even after all the witnesses sent to them, all the sermons they heard, all the loved ones who spoke to them about Christ, after all of that, they died lost. God tried to save them, but He failed. He did His part, they just would not do theirs. That is truly a sad theology. :tear:

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

DHK - Thanks, but it's alright. Since I recently made comments in opposition to Calvinism I've been called a drunk

(Icon questioned if I had been drinking),

I asked if you had been drinking because you attacked Rippon and questioned if he worshipped God....I did not say you were drunk...don't say I said it is I did not.

I've been told that I "hate God" (Icon again),

If you are going to speak about me quote the whole sentence....not your made up ideas...you were answered here;
btyrippon-

You are being quite hypocritical. In post 7 you said:

"The God made evident through the lens of Calvinism is a duplicitous deity."

And...

"The God found in Calvinism is very much a vicious monster."

Don't pretend to be a victim when you are casting slurs.

and I've been told that I have a venomous heart and I've inadequately studied the Word. I'm okay with this. They said much worse about my Lord and Savior.

stop playing the martyr. You attacked ...you got answered

I do worship God, and I worship the God that I find revealed in scripture and I find in the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I do not see the God Calvinism claims to see,

are you saying we do not worship God? how else can you explain your statement? are there two Gods...as your statement suggests?

but according to the Cals that because I'm not sound in my Biblical study

.

What if that is true?

Which is what it seems so often to come down to with them

.

When you deny what he says{election for example} what do you want us to say?

"You don't know God because you haven't properly studied." It doesn't matter how much of your life you've dedicated to studying the Word and praying for the Spirit's guidance, unless you believe in their God you simply have not studied enough.

you do it again here.

Thankfully not all Cals act this way.

everyone is not in agreement with you.

 

[Iconoclast]

You make stupid and sinful remarks like that? You do this habitually.

yes ..others have noticed this:thumbsup:

Yet another example of your immoderate conduct.

You just can't help yourself.

yes :wavey:

You are the court jester.

yes....i think you are right:laugh:

Another nonsense remark which you have become noted for.

It is like a pattern:laugh:

 

[Protestant]

The non-Cal believes more in the sovereignty of God than the Cal. The Cal limits the sovereignty of God and in so doing weakens both the character and strength of God.
In God's sovereignty the non-Cal views God as One who has the authority to allow man to have a will to choose or reject Jesus Christ. This does not violate his sovereignty but strengthens it. In allowing man, within the boundaries of his sovereignty to choose to receive Christ, God's sovereignty becomes greater than the limited sovereignty the Calvinist allows God to have.

Dear Readers:

I place before you, cited above for your edification and enlightenment, a classic example of a propaganda device called Double Talk.

According to the author, DHK, In salvation God is more sovereign when He gives up His sovereignty to man.

In his book, Propaganda Techniques, Henry Conserva defines such a technique:

Double Talk is meaningless speech. It can consist of nonsense words or misplaced words within intelligible speech, or it can simply be contradictory statements. P.33

In the paragraph quoted we have nonsensical, contradictory, unintelligible statements.

Nonsensical: “The non-Cal believes more in the sovereignty of God than the Cal.”
“The Cal limits the sovereignty of God and in so doing weakens both the character and strength of God.”

Contradictory: “In God's sovereignty the non-Cal views God as One who has the authority to allow man to have a will to choose or reject Jesus Christ. This does not violate his sovereignty but strengthens it.”

Unintelligible: “In allowing man, within the boundaries of his sovereignty to choose to receive Christ, God's sovereignty becomes greater than the limited sovereignty the Calvinist allows God to have.”

CONCLUSION: Our God is not a God of confusion.

Nor has the Spirit has given us an unsound mind. The cited quote is gibberish, not worthy of a minister of God, or a professor of theology (e.g. Flowers).

The biblical God cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim. 2:13)

Nor will He be ruled by His creatures.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (Romans 9:18-23)

Pastor DHK would have the clay tell the potter how salvation works.

He would have the clay tell the potter how he should be made.

All this he claims without one whit of proof texts.

And no wonder.....they don't exist.

Alas, Scripture plainly states that when our God, aka the Potter, created each man, aka the clay, He formed each clay with a specific destiny in mind: Heaven for the vessels of mercy and Hell for the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Such are the ways of the sovereign, holy, all-wise, righteous God of the Bible.

 

[DHK]

Dear Readers:

I place before you, cited above for your edification and enlightenment, a classic example of a propaganda device called Double Talk.

According to the author, DHK, In salvation God is more sovereign when He gives up His sovereignty to man.

In his book, Propaganda Techniques, Henry Conserva defines such a technique:/quote]
Readers? really? You don't have the integrity to answer my by name and therefore address all "readers"?
Double Talk? You were the one that laid a false accusation against Tony that started this discussion. I was simply defending Tony's position. Here is the original statement by you:

Tony's God:
4. Denies Himself His rightful sovereign rule, preferring man’s free-will to overrule His will.

What you said was a blatant lie.
First, Tony never claimed to have his own personal God.
Second, Tony does not claim or deny "God's rightful sovereign rule." Why don't you ask him about that instead of slandering him about it?
Third, Tony believes in free-will as most non-cals do. You falsely conclude that that belief over-rules God's will. Now who is the one that is slandering Tony, and not being fair, nor logical. You are the one in the wrong, making wrong inferences, statements that were never made in the first place. You are entirely out of order.

Now concerning your quote:

Originally Posted by DHK View Post

The non-Cal believes more in the sovereignty of God than the Cal. The Cal limits the sovereignty of God and in so doing weakens both the character and strength of God.
In God's sovereignty the non-Cal views God as One who has the authority to allow man to have a will to choose or reject Jesus Christ. This does not violate his sovereignty but strengthens it. In allowing man, within the boundaries of his sovereignty to choose to receive Christ, God's sovereignty becomes greater than the limited sovereignty the Calvinist allows God to have.

It is a comparison between how the Cals view God and the non-Cals view God. There is nothing illogical in that.
Dave Hunt, in his book "What Love is This," says:

It is the Calvinists’ extreme view of God’s sovereignty that causes them to reject the biblical teaching that salvation is offered freely to all. Instead, they limit salvation to the elect. Otherwise, they argue, if man is free either to accept or reject salvation, that leaves the final decision up to man and places God at his mercy.
“So are you suggesting,” they object, “That God wants to save all mankind but lacks the power to do so? It is a denial of God’s omnipotence and sovereignty if there is anything He desires but can’t accomplish.” Yet MacArthur, Packer, Piper, and others say that God desires the salvation of all yet doesn’t decree it. This is a real contradiction, whereas it is no contradiction at all to say that God has given man the free choice of whether to receive Christ or not.
In fact, power has not relationship to grace and love, which provide salvation. Moreover, as we shall see, there are many things God cannot do, and a lack of “power” is not the reason for any of them, nor is His sovereignty mitigated in the least.

This is the damning explanation that Protestant refuses to believe.
In effect the Calvinist is limiting the sovereignty of God, but is blind to his own erroneous view of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

DHK gave this quote from Dave Hunt.

It is the Calvinists’ extreme view of God’s sovereignty that causes them to reject the biblical teaching that salvation is offered freely to all. Instead, they limit salvation to the elect. Otherwise, they argue, if man is free either to accept or reject salvation, that leaves the final decision up to man and places God at his mercy.
“So are you suggesting,” they object, “That God wants to save all mankind but lacks the power to do so? It is a denial of God’s omnipotence and sovereignty if there is anything He desires but can’t accomplish.” Yet MacArthur, Packer, Piper, and others say that God desires the salvation of all yet doesn’t decree it. This is a real contradiction, whereas it is no contradiction at all to say that God has given man the free choice of whether to receive Christ or not.
In fact, power has not relationship to grace and love, which provide salvation. Moreover, as we shall see, there are many things God cannot do, and a lack of “power” is not the reason for any of them, nor is His sovereignty mitigated in the least.

Where is the 'grace and love' if God has not provided salvation for anyone? Man has the free choice of whether to trust in Christ or not, but he will not take it. And this is not because God actively prevents people from trusting in Christ; there is no one saying to himself, "How I wish I could believe but I.....just.....can't.......do it!" No! People do not believe because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). If God did not elect some to salvation, no one would ever be saved. 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalm 14:2-3).

Inability is not physical, it is moral and spiritual. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). I know the wickedness of my own heart. If God had not irresistibly drawn me to Christ, I would never have come (John 6:44). Praise God for irresistible grace! No hope without it!

 

[DHK]

DHK gave this quote from Dave Hunt.

Where is the 'grace and love' if God has not provided salvation for anyone? Man has the free choice of whether to trust in Christ or not, but he will not take it. And this is not because God actively prevents people from trusting in Christ; there is no one saying to himself, "How I wish I could believe but I.....just.....can't.......do it!" No! People do not believe because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts.

Why not read the book of Acts and see why some came to Christ and others didn't. For example, on the Day of Pentecost there were about 100,000 present. Only 3,000 were saved. What happened to the other 97,000? With all the spiritual manifestations, the miracles, the sermon by Peter, the obvious conviction of the Holy Spirit ("Men and brethren what shall we do?"). Why didn't more get saved? They "resisted" the Holy Spirit. Others "chose" of their own free will to receive Christ. They were not forced to do so. There was no irresistible grace forcing them to receive Christ and be saved. It was their decision to do so.

'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). If God did not elect some to salvation, no one would ever be saved.

A person does not get saved because he chooses not to get saved, not because God forces him one way or another. That would be cruelty.
In John 3:19, Jesus is the light who came into the world--the sinless perfect lamb of God. Sinful ungodly men run away from His Light. But others are attracted to it. John the Baptist said: "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." He pointed his disciples to Jesus and they followed him. They had not yet become followers of Christ, but they were attracted to the Light. So were Andrew, Peter and John. Not ALL men are condemned by the Light. Some are attracted to it. The statement is a general statement about mankind, not an absolute. Don't take such statements out of context simply because of your Calvinism.

'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalm 14:2-3).

Again, context. What is the verse really saying.
Psa.14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
--David is speaking about the ungodly--the fool.

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
--It is the fool, the ungodly that don't understand and seek God. That is who God is looking down upon. That is the context.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--Does "all mean all" here? Had David also "gone aside? No.
This refers to the ungodly fools that had gone aside and had altogether become filthy. They were the ones that did no good, not even one of them.

As verse one opens the context verse four furthers the context and completes it:
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
--Between verses one and four are 2 and 3. They are the ungodly fools also referred to here as "workers of iniquity."

Inability is not physical, it is moral and spiritual. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). I know the wickedness of my own heart. If God had not irresistibly drawn me to Christ, I would never have come (John 6:44). Praise God for irresistible grace! No hope without it!

There is no such thing as Total Inability.
There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace.
Neither concept can be proven through scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK gave this quote from Dave Hunt.

Where is the 'grace and love' if God has not provided salvation for anyone? Man has the free choice of whether to trust in Christ or not, but he will not take it. And this is not because God actively prevents people from trusting in Christ; there is no one saying to himself, "How I wish I could believe but I.....just.....can't.......do it!" No! People do not believe because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). If God did not elect some to salvation, no one would ever be saved. 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalm 14:2-3).

Inability is not physical, it is moral and spiritual. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). I know the wickedness of my own heart. If God had not irresistibly drawn me to Christ, I would never have come (John 6:44). Praise God for irresistible grace! No hope without it!

:applause:.....the effectually called believer always rejoices in the truth of the grace of God. :applause:
Millions have experienced this irresistible grace in their lives throughout church history.;

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK gave this quote from Dave Hunt.

Where is the 'grace and love' if God has not provided salvation for anyone? Man has the free choice of whether to trust in Christ or not, but he will not take it. And this is not because God actively prevents people from trusting in Christ; there is no one saying to himself, "How I wish I could believe but I.....just.....can't.......do it!" No! People do not believe because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). If God did not elect some to salvation, no one would ever be saved. 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalm 14:2-3).

Inability is not physical, it is moral and spiritual. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). I know the wickedness of my own heart. If God had not irresistibly drawn me to Christ, I would never have come (John 6:44). Praise God for irresistible grace! No hope without it!

Beautiful words, and full of biblical truth(s). :applause:

 

[Protestant]

:applause:.....the effectually called believer always rejoices in the truth of the grace of God. :applause:
Millions have experienced this irresistible grace in their lives throughout church history.;

Amen.

Here is my testimony:

But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

May God 'force' His irresistible saving grace upon all our unregenerate loved ones as He did us!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Amen.

Here is my testimony:

But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

May God 'force' His irresistible saving grace upon all our unregenerate loved ones as He did us!

The thing is, no one other than the other side of the debate uses the words force, fantoche, marionnettiste, et, cruel monstre. God effectually calls, and in this calling, He equips them with all the necessaries, such as faith and repentance. No force necessary, He gives life to whosoever He wills.

 

[Iconoclast]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protestant View Post
Amen.

Here is my testimony:

But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

May God 'force' His irresistible saving grace upon all our unregenerate loved ones as He did us!

The thing is, no one other than the other side of the debate uses the words force, fantoche, marionnettiste, et, cruel monstre. God effectually calls, and in this calling, He equips them with all the necessaries, such as faith and repentance. No force necessary, He gives life to whosoever He wills.
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Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and who meditates on his law day and night. That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither-whatever they do prospers.[Psa. 1:1-3]

Correct once again.

Good solid posting brothers.....quite refreshing!