Featured The Eternal Purpose of Christ PT 3

Faith is faith.
What makes "carnal" faith is the object of the faith.
The rich young ruler walked away from Jesus putting his faith in his riches rather than Christ.
The Ethiopian Eunuch put his faith in Christ was saved, and also demonstrated his faith by being baptized.
The object of the Eunuch's faith was Christ. It wasn't Philip, or any other thing or person. It was Christ. Faith alone in Christ alone saves.

The Eunuch was saved because "he put HIS faith in Christ."
Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that HIS faith came from God. He did not put God's faith in Christ. That entire concept is absurd.

Jesus taught the opposite.
Thy faith has made you whole.
According to thy faith so be it.
It was always "according to "that person's faith," not God's faith, as you so constantly affirm.

 

:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:tres tres bien.....ce ne contestes

 

That is not what James teaches. If it was then people who did good deeds and yet do not have Christ, would be saved. There are many charitable organizations that do good humanitarian work in this world. Their work is good, but it won't save them. Good works don't save. Even faith plus good works don't save.
Faith in Christ saves. And faith in Christ produces the fruit of the Spirit as well as good works.

Faith is not a work.
To say "faith that actually works" is a mistake. That implies that faith does something, that it is a work. It is not. Faith is simple trust, confidence in the word of another.
It is the object of the faith that is important.

This is a general statement. James is speaking about the practical Christian life and how we should live. One might come back and ask the question: "For how long?" How long can a person go without doing a good work before you declare that person unsaved? You are basing salvation on works and not on faith.
The RCC and COC love this passage and use it often, not normally a Calvinist who believes in eternal security.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
--The Shepherd knows his sheep, and he knows them by name. He knows them because he has a relationship with them, not because of their works.

That is not true. You keep missing the point that faith has an object. Faith is faith. It is the object of the faith that is important. When the object of faith is Christ, and his sacrifice then a person can be saved.
However, many have put faith in others and have done good works. Many put their faith in Napoleon and died for him.

An example:
Bishop Milton Wright was considered "a man of faith," or a man who trusted God. He served a rather modest life in the United Brethren Church.
His sons, Orville and Wilbur, trusted in their intellect more than in God. It was still faith. The result was their contribution to mankind in the way of an invention of a "flying-machine" or air-plane."
Faith is faith, whether one's faith is in God or in their own intellect. It is the object of faith that is important. All of these men "did good." As far as their works were considered for salvation, no work is good in the eyes of God. There is nothing one can bring to merit salvation. Only after salvation does God look at a man's works. But that doesn't mean that an unsaved man cannot do works that will not benefit mankind. Nor does it mean his works are a indicator of his salvation.
The absence of works by one who claims he is a believer may be a sign that he is not truly a Christian. But it is God that looks upon the heart and ultimately Him who is judge.

He said: "I believe," indicating he was a believer. Then he said, "Help my lack of faith." In other words, strengthen me, etc.
Your favorite commentator, Walvoord, puts it this way:

Christ is the object of our faith. That is what makes one a Christian. This the father of the child had already done. The Christian life is all about growing, sanctification, increasing in faith, a walk of faith, etc.

Faith is as natural in man as is love, hope, joy, etc.
Jesus puts all of these in perspective if you study the Bible thoroughly.
Jesus pointed out how a mother could have joy in the birth of a child in spite of the pain of child birth. It didn't matter if she was saved or not.
All people have hope. Again it is the object of our hope that is important. The Christian's hope is in the Second Coming of Christ.
Christians get too caught up in the word "agape" when speaking about love.
--Three times Jesus asked Peter: Do you love me?
In the first two instances he used the verb agape.
In the last instance he used the verb phileo. Does that mean that his love was not divine when he asked him the last time: "Do you love me?"

I say that to say this: In anticipation of stating that only Christians have agape love or divine love, Christ himself used the word phileo, so the distinction is not as great as we sometimes think it is.
IOW, this word cannot be confined to God's love for us or the believer's love for God or for one another. It is also used for unbelievers who love each other. Love is natural. Love is innate. An infant is born with the natural ability to love its mother, having faith in its mother for protection and provision, and hope in its mother that she will continue to be that protection and provision. These qualities are innate in a person. They develop when a relationship is developed. When the relationship deepens, these qualities deepen.

In saying that he demonstrated that faith was not a work. If you fail to understand that, then you do not understand the verse.

 

Faith is a work, a deed ,what are the works of Abraham here John 8:39 ? It's a walk of Faith!

 

It is scripture taken out of context, just as the RCC takes the same scripture and makes it mean the same thing you are making it to mean. You should be ashamed. This is why the fifth point of TULIP is "Perseverance" instead of "Preservation." You are demonstrating that the Calvinistic notion of salvation is salvation by works, and one must persevere in their salvation through their works in order to be saved.
You are demonstrating that salvation is not by faith and faith alone, i.e., sola fide is not in your books.

But take into consideration the context. James was writing to Christians not unbelievers. He was writing about the practical Christian life. Why must you neglect context? This is not a passage about salvation.
Note the verse:
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
--Context: verse 2 says "come into your assembly." This is speaking of the local church. It is speaking of the members in the local church and their attitude towards others. Is this a demonstration of their faith? No.
A demonstration of the life of the believer is a life of works. Nothing here about salvation. You are off topic.

There are two statements here. They are very clear.
"I believe (in Christ as Messiah)." This is a statement of salvation.
Then as a believer in Christ, and concerning his son, who not even Christ's apostles could help, he cries out: "help my 'lack of faith.' (for my son to be healed'). To him it seemed like an impossibility for not even the apostles had the power to do so. Is it any wonder that he had some doubt about the power to heal here!!
He had no doubt or confidence in his faith that Christ was the Messiah, and said "I believe" asserting his belief in Christ--salvation.
Do not deny the scriptures here. I believe, NOT "God believed for me."

As you demonstrated in James chapter two you have a propensity to ignore the context even at the expense of trying to justify the principles of TULIP at any expense.
Yes, there are statements that are general and some specific.
There are anthropomorphisms, poetical language, figures of speech, unfulfilled eschatological promises, etc. If we don't study: language, historical background, the author, his purpose for writing, the overall context and the specific context, etc. how will we ever come to the proper conclusion of what the passage means? It is called "Hermeneutics."

I already have. Look above. I quoted the verse to you already.
That bolded statement was a rhetorical question. Again you are ignoring context. Who is James writing to. What is he talking about? He is not speaking about the need of salvation to these believers. Or have you denied eternal security?
Why do you think I mentioned the difference between Perseverance and Preservation?

Again, a denial of justification by faith, salvation by faith.
We are not saved by works. It is Christ that saves, not our works.

Tell me your view on the parable of the "Prodigal son"?
Was he a son before he went astray or did he become a son only after he came back and was "reclaimed."
Was he really "prodigal" as the name says--a son gone astray--backslidden?
Or was he a lost person, and then somehow became a son when he came home?
Which interpretation is the correct one?

Yes, he put his faith in Christ. Christ was the object of his faith.
His unbelief was related in the power to heal his son whom the apostles could not heal. All Christians go through times of unbelief. If you say they don't I don't believe you. We lose our confidence, at times, that God will not fulfill his end of the deal in our Christian lives. We become discouraged. No one is perfect and without sin.

Faith is faith.
For the believer Paul said:
"I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me."
Yes, "the I can faith," is exactly what the Lord intends the believer to have. "I can" but it is through Christ, with the help of Christ.
The Calvinist doesn't believe that because he is a monergist.
He must say: "God works through me." I do nothing; it is God. Thus he takes no responsibility. But that is not what Paul said. Paul said, "I do..." He took responsibility. He always said: "I pray..." I was in the market witnessing..." How many times does he use the first person singular. Constantly. The Lord strengthened him as he worked. That is synergism.

Faith is faith. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that God gives man faith; or that regeneration gives one faith. That is an illusion.

No that is not true.
I visited people in the hospital before I was saved.
I visited people in the hospital after I was saved.
God did not enable me to visit people in the hospital. How could you come to such a conclusion as that. Good works is not an enablement of the Spirit.
Believers do good works or ought to do good works because they are believers and have more of a desire to do good works. It shouldn't be so much of a duty, but rather a pleasure, even rejoicing while doing them.

Just continue to ignore context as usual.

This is what you call regeneration. It has no biblical basis, and is more comparable to mysticism.
However, if you mean that the Holy Spirit is doing his work, per John 16:8-11, by convicting the sinner of his sin, then I will agree with you.

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. It is the conviction of sin that a person may first come under, and then he comes to Christ. Regeneration can occur only after one puts their faith in the gospel.

Peter made that very clear:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

I agree. But they do know what it means to have faith, hope and love. It is just not on the same plane as the believer. That is all I am pointing out here.
Thus the unregenerate does have faith. His faith is simply in the wrong person or thing. But it is faith.

They are an illustration. Jesus used the illustration.

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

--Little children act in simple innocent faith.

I am not here to argue with your dissertation on hope.
Like faith, hope has an object. The unsaved rest their hope on the wrong things instead of Christ, or the coming of Christ. Their hope is on a better president, a better economy, someone to lead them out of this economic chaos, etc. But they do have hope, per se. They do know what it is.

Not all men have hope in Christ.
Let's keep things in their proper context.

If you ask for a good definition of love it will or should be something like this:
It is a self-sacrificial giving of one's self. (That is very brief, but it is what Christ did for us).
Is that true of some people in the world? Yes. Some mothers have sacrificed their lives for their children. Some fathers have sacrificed their lives for their families. Some soldiers have sacrificed their lives for their fellow-soldier if not their nation. We have examples in the world that fit that same definition of "love."

Do you accuse Christ of being carnal because he did not always use the word of agape. You are deliberately avoiding the central truth here. Christ used the word "philew" when he addressed Peter: "Do you love me"? Was he being carnal? By your reasoning you say he was.
In the Greek this word is used in a carnal sense, at least in the sense that you are using it in. As you say, "They are not even in the same time zone," but Christ used it of Peter." Conclusion: Christ is carnal. Is that right?

But that is not what the verse teaches. That is what you read into the verse.
Faith is the only "work" one can do. Since faith is not a work, per se, Salvation is not of works. Simply believe and you shall have eternal life. This is what is taught consistently throughout the gospel of John. It is the conclusion and theme of the book.

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

dhk

Yeah but its worthless in the matters of God and Spiritual things, it cant please God Rom 8:8, its not the Faith that is needed to come to God and Please Him Heb 11:6 !

So why bring it up in matters of Salvation ? Its worthless !

 

I agree with you.


For we are his workmanship, created (Does not, the grace through the faith, salvation, fall here?) in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If God ordained it, will it not come to be?

 

I use this illustration over and over again.

I have faith in the word of the Ford motor company (their manual), that as they say, if I put my key into the ignition and turn it, my car will start. And so it did. First time.
I have faith that my car will continue to start every time I put my key in the ignition put of the "relationship" I have developed with my car (or experience). It hasn't failed me (except a couple of times and then I had to change the battery). It is man-made and thus fallible. God is perfect and his promises never fail.
Faith is faith. The object of my faith in this car specifically in the first case was the word of the Ford motor company. In the second case it was my relationship with the car.
The object of my faith in salvation is Christ. In my Christian walk it is strengthened because of my relationship with him.

Again a definition of faith is given here:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

--Faith is simply confidence in the word of another--being fully persuaded what (God or another person) has promised, he is able to perform. That is faith.
--This is from the OT when Abraham lived. There was no regeneration in the OT. Define regeneration. It specifically applies only to NT believers. It is a NT theological term. Therefore it is impossible for Abraham to receive faith via regeneration.

The Catholics use this verse too. Faith produces works. Keep in mind the context. Mother Teresa had many good works. What "faith" produced them?
As I said, you are using this verse out of context. You are ignoring Romans chapter four which contradicts this passage in the way that you are using it.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
--Abraham had works but they did not justify him. They had nothing to do with his faith.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To him that does not works at all, but simply believes, that one is the one that is justified before God. Works don't count one iota when salvation is considered. You are using the passage in James as a Catholic would and it contradicts the Word of God when speaking about salvation.

This is a debate forum, and there is no rules against moderators entering into the debate. I have said nothing wrong. Don't be so thin-skinned.
You are using a book on the practical Christian life, speaking of the Christian walk and not salvation, to try to speak about salvation which is wrong. It clearly contradicts Romans chapter four has I have just demonstrated. You have a propensity of taking scripture out of context to defend your Calvinism.

Show me one scripture, taken in its proper context that shows that faith is given to the regenerated. You can't do it, and haven't done it yet.
Nicodemus was not regenerated. What did he need? He needed to believe as Jesus said later on in John 3:16. He needed to believe--"whosoever believeth on him" has everlasting life. That is what he needed in order to be regenerated. Not Christ nor any other person was going to give him regeneration in order that he may believe on Christ.

God doesn't force "the elect" to believe. But a Calvinist must believe that because they are "elect" before the foundation of the world, therefore there is nothing they can do about it. No use praying about, witnessing to them, having any care about whatsoever. They are going to be elect anyway whether you do anything about it or not. They are elect before the foundation of the world. You are a monergist devoid of any responsibility before God. That is in a sad place to be my friend.

 

deleted: off topic.

 

edited: off topic.

 

:wavey::laugh::wavey: clear and helpful post

 

I got this. I close this.

New thread.

 

While everything for the most part in this tread was said appropriately, I am closing it because

1. People complaining.

2. It is long.

3. New thread needs to be started.