The Eternal Purpose of Christ PT 3

[DHK]

Faith in dogs, cats, peoples, chairs, &c is carnal. Saving faith is God-given, mon ami.

Faith is faith.
What makes "carnal" faith is the object of the faith.
The rich young ruler walked away from Jesus putting his faith in his riches rather than Christ.
The Ethiopian Eunuch put his faith in Christ was saved, and also demonstrated his faith by being baptized.
The object of the Eunuch's faith was Christ. It wasn't Philip, or any other thing or person. It was Christ. Faith alone in Christ alone saves.

The Eunuch was saved because "he put HIS faith in Christ."
Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that HIS faith came from God. He did not put God's faith in Christ. That entire concept is absurd.

Jesus taught the opposite.
Thy faith has made you whole.
According to thy faith so be it.
It was always "according to "that person's faith," not God's faith, as you so constantly affirm.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Faith is faith.
What makes "carnal" faith is the object of the faith.
The rich young ruler walked away from Jesus putting his faith in his riches rather than Christ.
The Ethiopian Eunuch put his faith in Christ was saved, and also demonstrated his faith by being baptized.
The object of the Eunuch's faith was Christ. It wasn't Philip, or any other thing or person. It was Christ. Faith alone in Christ alone saves.

The Eunuch was saved because "he put HIS faith in Christ."
Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that HIS faith came from God. He did not put God's faith in Christ. That entire concept is absurd.

Jesus taught the opposite.
Thy faith has made you whole.
According to thy faith so be it.
It was always "according to "that person's faith," not God's faith, as you so constantly affirm.

This 'faith is faith' mantra rings as hollow as a 55 gallon drum. What faith does the unregenerate have? What did James say about faith? I will take you, DHK, to the very words that James wrote that describes the very characteristics of faith.


What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.[Jas. 2:14-26]


Any faith that actually works, actually saves, is accompanied by (good) works. Any faith w/o works is dead. The unregenerate are spiritually dead and have a faith that is devoid of any (good) works. In Mark 9 Jesus is confronted with a boy with an impure spirit that even the disciples could not cause it to leave him. A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.” “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.” So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth. Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” “From childhood,” he answered. “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.” “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”[Mk. 9:17-24] This boy's father was in a quandary. He brought his son to Jesus' disciples and they could do nothing with that impure spirit. He then comes to Jesus seeking His help. He made the remark "If you can do anything" and then Jesus looked at him and asked "If you can?", as a rebuke for his unbelief, his un-faith. Jesus then told him 'Everything is possible for one who believes." Here is where the 'rubber meets the road' and he proclaims, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief." If faith was inside man, carnal, then why the need to ask Jesus to "help me overcome my unbelief"?

Faith residing in man is carnal, because it is fleshly and no one in the flesh can and/or will please God.

As Jesus said that “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[Jn. 6:29]

 

[Iconoclast]

This 'faith is faith' mantra rings as hollow as a 55 gallon drum. What faith does the unregenerate have? What did James say about faith? I will take you, DHK, to the very words that James wrote that describes the very characteristics of faith.


What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.[Jas. 2:14-26]


Any faith that actually works, actually saves, is accompanied by (good) works. Any faith w/o works is dead. The unregenerate are spiritually dead and have a faith that is devoid of any (good) works. In Mark 9 Jesus is confronted with a boy with an impure spirit that even the disciples could not cause it to leave him. A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.” “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.” So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth. Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” “From childhood,” he answered. “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.” “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”[Mk. 9:17-24] This boy's father was in a quandary. He brought his son to Jesus' disciples and they could do nothing with that impure spirit. He then comes to Jesus seeking His help. He made the remark "If you can do anything" and then Jesus looked at him and asked "If you can?", as a rebuke for his unbelief, his un-faith. Jesus then told him 'Everything is possible for one who believes." Here is where the 'rubber meets the road' and he proclaims, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief." If faith was inside man, carnal, then why the need to ask Jesus to "help me overcome my unbelief"?

Faith residing in man is carnal, because it is fleshly and no one in the flesh can and/or will please God.

As Jesus said that “The work of God is this: to believe inDavid Hutchings, here is a bit more reading for you that interacts with our paedobaptist brethren from an informed perspective, in addition to the resources we have already posted and linked for you:

https://contrast2.wordpress.com/ the one he has sent.”[Jn. 6:29]

:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:tres tres bien.....ce ne contestes

 

[SovereignGrace]

:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:tres tres bien.....ce ne contestes

Merci beaucoup mon ami.

 

[DHK]

This 'faith is faith' mantra rings as hollow as a 55 gallon drum. What faith does the unregenerate have? What did James say about faith? I will take you, DHK, to the very words that James wrote that describes the very characteristics of faith.


What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.[Jas. 2:14-26]


Any faith that actually works, actually saves, is accompanied by (good) works.

That is not what James teaches. If it was then people who did good deeds and yet do not have Christ, would be saved. There are many charitable organizations that do good humanitarian work in this world. Their work is good, but it won't save them. Good works don't save. Even faith plus good works don't save.
Faith in Christ saves. And faith in Christ produces the fruit of the Spirit as well as good works.

Faith is not a work.
To say "faith that actually works" is a mistake. That implies that faith does something, that it is a work. It is not. Faith is simple trust, confidence in the word of another.
It is the object of the faith that is important.

Any faith w/o works is dead.

This is a general statement. James is speaking about the practical Christian life and how we should live. One might come back and ask the question: "For how long?" How long can a person go without doing a good work before you declare that person unsaved? You are basing salvation on works and not on faith.
The RCC and COC love this passage and use it often, not normally a Calvinist who believes in eternal security.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
--The Shepherd knows his sheep, and he knows them by name. He knows them because he has a relationship with them, not because of their works.

The unregenerate are spiritually dead and have a faith that is devoid of any (good) works.

That is not true. You keep missing the point that faith has an object. Faith is faith. It is the object of the faith that is important. When the object of faith is Christ, and his sacrifice then a person can be saved.
However, many have put faith in others and have done good works. Many put their faith in Napoleon and died for him.

An example:
Bishop Milton Wright was considered "a man of faith," or a man who trusted God. He served a rather modest life in the United Brethren Church.
His sons, Orville and Wilbur, trusted in their intellect more than in God. It was still faith. The result was their contribution to mankind in the way of an invention of a "flying-machine" or air-plane."
Faith is faith, whether one's faith is in God or in their own intellect. It is the object of faith that is important. All of these men "did good." As far as their works were considered for salvation, no work is good in the eyes of God. There is nothing one can bring to merit salvation. Only after salvation does God look at a man's works. But that doesn't mean that an unsaved man cannot do works that will not benefit mankind. Nor does it mean his works are a indicator of his salvation.
The absence of works by one who claims he is a believer may be a sign that he is not truly a Christian. But it is God that looks upon the heart and ultimately Him who is judge.

In Mark 9 Jesus is confronted with a boy with an impure spirit that even the disciples could not cause it to leave him. A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.” “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.” So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth. Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” “From childhood,” he answered. “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.” “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”[Mk. 9:17-24] This boy's father was in a quandary. He brought his son to Jesus' disciples and they could do nothing with that impure spirit. He then comes to Jesus seeking His help. He made the remark "If you can do anything" and then Jesus looked at him and asked "If you can?", as a rebuke for his unbelief, his un-faith. Jesus then told him 'Everything is possible for one who believes." Here is where the 'rubber meets the road' and he proclaims, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief." If faith was inside man, carnal, then why the need to ask Jesus to "help me overcome my unbelief"?

He said: "I believe," indicating he was a believer. Then he said, "Help my lack of faith." In other words, strengthen me, etc.
Your favorite commentator, Walvoord, puts it this way:

The father’s response was immediate (euthys). He declared his faith (I do believe), but also acknowledged its weakness: Help me overcome my unbelief! This brings out an essential element of Christian faith — it is possible only with the help of the One who is its Object.

Christ is the object of our faith. That is what makes one a Christian. This the father of the child had already done. The Christian life is all about growing, sanctification, increasing in faith, a walk of faith, etc.

Faith residing in man is carnal, because it is fleshly and no one in the flesh can and/or will please God.

Faith is as natural in man as is love, hope, joy, etc.
Jesus puts all of these in perspective if you study the Bible thoroughly.
Jesus pointed out how a mother could have joy in the birth of a child in spite of the pain of child birth. It didn't matter if she was saved or not.
All people have hope. Again it is the object of our hope that is important. The Christian's hope is in the Second Coming of Christ.
Christians get too caught up in the word "agape" when speaking about love.
--Three times Jesus asked Peter: Do you love me?
In the first two instances he used the verb agape.
In the last instance he used the verb phileo. Does that mean that his love was not divine when he asked him the last time: "Do you love me?"

I say that to say this: In anticipation of stating that only Christians have agape love or divine love, Christ himself used the word phileo, so the distinction is not as great as we sometimes think it is.
IOW, this word cannot be confined to God's love for us or the believer's love for God or for one another. It is also used for unbelievers who love each other. Love is natural. Love is innate. An infant is born with the natural ability to love its mother, having faith in its mother for protection and provision, and hope in its mother that she will continue to be that protection and provision. These qualities are innate in a person. They develop when a relationship is developed. When the relationship deepens, these qualities deepen.

As Jesus said that “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[Jn. 6:29]

In saying that he demonstrated that faith was not a work. If you fail to understand that, then you do not understand the verse.

 

[SovereignGrace]

:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:tres tres bien.....ce ne contestes

You might want to edit this post, mon ami. Your post with that link is swallowed up in my post.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is not what James teaches. If it was then people who did good deeds and yet do not have Christ, would be saved. There are many charitable organizations that do good humanitarian work in this world. Their work is good, but it won't save them. Good works don't save. Even faith plus good works don't save.
Faith in Christ saves. And faith in Christ produces the fruit of the Spirit as well as good works.

What part of 'faith w/o works is dead' is hard to not grasp, mon ami?

Faith is not a work.

Never stated it was. I said faith WITHOUT works is dead. James, under the inspiration of the Spirit wrote that, no I, monsieur.

To say "faith that actually works" is a mistake. That implies that faith does something, that it is a work. It is not. Faith is simple trust, confidence in the word of another.
It is the object of the faith that is important.

Boy's dad brought him to Jesus' disciples and that did not work. He then, after conversing with Jesus stated "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" If faith was innate in man, it sure was not in him.

This is a general statement.

Everything with you is either a general statement, poetical language, anthropomorphic language, or something that has not yet been fulfilled and it belongs to Israel. I wonder why you always deflect with such rubbish?

James is speaking about the practical Christian life and how we should live. One might come back and ask the question: "For how long?" How long can a person go without doing a good work before you declare that person unsaved? You are basing salvation on works and not on faith.
The RCC and COC love this passage and use it often, not normally a Calvinist who believes in eternal security.

Wrong again, mon ami. James stated What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? You need to take that up with God.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
--The Shepherd knows his sheep, and he knows them by name. He knows them because he has a relationship with them, not because of their works.

Yes. The works they do, even their believing in God unto the saving of their souls, are wrought by God. His sheep were known unto Him from before the creation of the world. Those are the one He died for, shed His blood for, was buried three days and nights for, ascended to the Father for, and will come back for.

That is not true. You keep missing the point that faith has an object. Faith is faith. It is the object of the faith that is important. When the object of faith is Christ, and his sacrifice then a person can be saved.
However, many have put faith in others and have done good works. Many put their faith in Napoleon and died for him.

Again, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

An example:
Bishop Milton Wright was considered "a man of faith," or a man who trusted God. He served a rather modest life in the United Brethren Church.
His sons, Orville and Wilbur, trusted in their intellect more than in God. It was still faith. The result was their contribution to mankind in the way of an invention of a "flying-machine" or air-plane."

This is carnal faith, the 'something I can do' faith.

Faith is faith, whether one's faith is in God or in their own intellect. It is the object of faith that is important. All of these men "did good." As far as their works were considered for salvation, no work is good in the eyes of God. There is nothing one can bring to merit salvation. Only after salvation does God look at a man's works. But that doesn't mean that an unsaved man cannot do works that will not benefit mankind. Nor does it mean his works are a indicator of his salvation.

Carnal faith vs supernatural God-given faith? You decide.

The absence of works by one who claims he is a believer may be a sign that he is not truly a Christian. But it is God that looks upon the heart and ultimately Him who is judge.

And it is God who has enabled them to do those good works.

He said: "I believe," indicating he was a believer. Then he said, "Help my lack of faith." In other words, strengthen me, etc.
Your favorite commentator, Walvoord, puts it this way:

"Help me overcome my unbelief!"

Christ is the object of our faith. That is what makes one a Christian. This the father of the child had already done. The Christian life is all about growing, sanctification, increasing in faith, a walk of faith, etc.

And w/o God first working a will and do in his life, he will never look to Christ. The unregenerate always look to any and everybody but God. They want nothing to do with God in an unregenerate state. Serving Him was the low man on my totem pole, monsieur, when He sought me out and drew me to Him. In fact, I was going the other way and He overtook me and change my will and my desires.


****had to cut it and put the rest on another post...too lengthy****

 

[SovereignGrace]

Faith is as natural in man as is love, hope, joy, etc.

And all of these have natural, fleshly attributes, too. I had a hope of getting home, of making it to work, of doing the task set before me, as a sinner, but Christ being my Hope is a completely different Hope altogether. I love my family, but the love I have for Him is way deeper. Plus, you love your wife differently than you do your kids. You love your kids differently than you do your parents. You love your parents differently than you do your aunts and uncles. You love your aunts and uncles differently than you do you friends, &c. You parents, wife, kids, relatives, friends bring a lot of joy into your life, but the joy God brings is way different. The first examples of hope, love, and joy is carnal, fleshly; whereas the second examples are supernatural, God-given.

Jesus puts all of these in perspective if you study the Bible thoroughly.

I do study it thoroughly, mon ami.

Jesus pointed out how a mother could have joy in the birth of a child in spite of the pain of child birth. It didn't matter if she was saved or not.

The love, joy and hope of a child is a whole lot more different than those attributes placed in Christ, monsieur.

All people have hope.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,[1 Tim. 1:1] Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.[Col. 1:24-27] No they do not. Jesus Christ is the only Hope that truly matters. He is the only Hope the saved have. Paul told them at Ephesus Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.[Eph. 2:11-13] Sinners have no hope if they remain in their sinful state mon ami. Those who die lost die w/o hope, therefore, not all men have hope.

Again it is the object of our hope that is important. The Christian's hope is in the Second Coming of Christ.
Christians get too caught up in the word "agape" when speaking about love.
--Three times Jesus asked Peter: Do you love me?
In the first two instances he used the verb agape.
In the last instance he used the verb phileo. Does that mean that his love was not divine when he asked him the last time: "Do you love me?"

Without God first drawing them, causing them to lift their eyes upwards towards Him, they will never experience this Hope. Those who die lost, die hopeless. Monsieur, not all men have hope.

I say that to say this: In anticipation of stating that only Christians have agape love or divine love, Christ himself used the word phileo, so the distinction is not as great as we sometimes think it is.

The unregenerate do not have agape love. The unregenerate have a love that 'if you love me I will love you back, but when you double-cross me, or do something evil to me, I am done with you." The unregenerate have a conditional love whereas agape love is unconditional.

IOW, this word cannot be confined to God's love for us or the believer's love for God or for one another. It is also used for unbelievers who love each other. Love is natural. Love is innate. An infant is born with the natural ability to love its mother, having faith in its mother for protection and provision, and hope in its mother that she will continue to be that protection and provision. These qualities are innate in a person. They develop when a relationship is developed. When the relationship deepens, these qualities deepen.

Carnal vs. agape love are not even in the same time zone, monsieur. A lot of times when a spouse cheats, they end up divorced. Sometimes they reconcile, but that marriage a lot of times is never the same. Why? Even though they may have forgiven their cheating spouse, there is a level of mistrust, especially if they happen to be late coming home. The agape love is unconditional. God knew we were playing the harlot, serving satan and not Him, but He unconditionally loves us and forgave us of our sins.

In saying that he demonstrated that faith was not a work. If you fail to understand that, then you do not understand the verse.

Never stated his faith was a work. His faith was a work of God opening his eyes, ears and heart to see who Jesus was, hear His words, and receive Him as Lord and Saviour. This is the work of God, that you believe upon the One He sent.

 

[savedbymercy]

That is not what James teaches. If it was then people who did good deeds and yet do not have Christ, would be saved. There are many charitable organizations that do good humanitarian work in this world. Their work is good, but it won't save them. Good works don't save. Even faith plus good works don't save.
Faith in Christ saves. And faith in Christ produces the fruit of the Spirit as well as good works.

Faith is not a work.
To say "faith that actually works" is a mistake. That implies that faith does something, that it is a work. It is not. Faith is simple trust, confidence in the word of another.
It is the object of the faith that is important.

This is a general statement. James is speaking about the practical Christian life and how we should live. One might come back and ask the question: "For how long?" How long can a person go without doing a good work before you declare that person unsaved? You are basing salvation on works and not on faith.
The RCC and COC love this passage and use it often, not normally a Calvinist who believes in eternal security.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
--The Shepherd knows his sheep, and he knows them by name. He knows them because he has a relationship with them, not because of their works.


That is not true. You keep missing the point that faith has an object. Faith is faith. It is the object of the faith that is important. When the object of faith is Christ, and his sacrifice then a person can be saved.
However, many have put faith in others and have done good works. Many put their faith in Napoleon and died for him.

An example:
Bishop Milton Wright was considered "a man of faith," or a man who trusted God. He served a rather modest life in the United Brethren Church.
His sons, Orville and Wilbur, trusted in their intellect more than in God. It was still faith. The result was their contribution to mankind in the way of an invention of a "flying-machine" or air-plane."
Faith is faith, whether one's faith is in God or in their own intellect. It is the object of faith that is important. All of these men "did good." As far as their works were considered for salvation, no work is good in the eyes of God. There is nothing one can bring to merit salvation. Only after salvation does God look at a man's works. But that doesn't mean that an unsaved man cannot do works that will not benefit mankind. Nor does it mean his works are a indicator of his salvation.
The absence of works by one who claims he is a believer may be a sign that he is not truly a Christian. But it is God that looks upon the heart and ultimately Him who is judge.


He said: "I believe," indicating he was a believer. Then he said, "Help my lack of faith." In other words, strengthen me, etc.
Your favorite commentator, Walvoord, puts it this way:

Christ is the object of our faith. That is what makes one a Christian. This the father of the child had already done. The Christian life is all about growing, sanctification, increasing in faith, a walk of faith, etc.


Faith is as natural in man as is love, hope, joy, etc.
Jesus puts all of these in perspective if you study the Bible thoroughly.
Jesus pointed out how a mother could have joy in the birth of a child in spite of the pain of child birth. It didn't matter if she was saved or not.
All people have hope. Again it is the object of our hope that is important. The Christian's hope is in the Second Coming of Christ.
Christians get too caught up in the word "agape" when speaking about love.
--Three times Jesus asked Peter: Do you love me?
In the first two instances he used the verb agape.
In the last instance he used the verb phileo. Does that mean that his love was not divine when he asked him the last time: "Do you love me?"

I say that to say this: In anticipation of stating that only Christians have agape love or divine love, Christ himself used the word phileo, so the distinction is not as great as we sometimes think it is.
IOW, this word cannot be confined to God's love for us or the believer's love for God or for one another. It is also used for unbelievers who love each other. Love is natural. Love is innate. An infant is born with the natural ability to love its mother, having faith in its mother for protection and provision, and hope in its mother that she will continue to be that protection and provision. These qualities are innate in a person. They develop when a relationship is developed. When the relationship deepens, these qualities deepen.


In saying that he demonstrated that faith was not a work. If you fail to understand that, then you do not understand the verse.

Faith is a work, a deed ,what are the works of Abraham here John 8:39 ? It's a walk of Faith!

 

[DHK]

What part of 'faith w/o works is dead' is hard to not grasp, mon ami?

It is scripture taken out of context, just as the RCC takes the same scripture and makes it mean the same thing you are making it to mean. You should be ashamed. This is why the fifth point of TULIP is "Perseverance" instead of "Preservation." You are demonstrating that the Calvinistic notion of salvation is salvation by works, and one must persevere in their salvation through their works in order to be saved.
You are demonstrating that salvation is not by faith and faith alone, i.e., sola fide is not in your books.

Never stated it was. I said faith WITHOUT works is dead. James, under the inspiration of the Spirit wrote that, no I, monsieur.

But take into consideration the context. James was writing to Christians not unbelievers. He was writing about the practical Christian life. Why must you neglect context? This is not a passage about salvation.
Note the verse:
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
--Context: verse 2 says "come into your assembly." This is speaking of the local church. It is speaking of the members in the local church and their attitude towards others. Is this a demonstration of their faith? No.
A demonstration of the life of the believer is a life of works. Nothing here about salvation. You are off topic.

Boy's dad brought him to Jesus' disciples and that did not work. He then, after conversing with Jesus stated "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" If faith was innate in man, it sure was not in him.

There are two statements here. They are very clear.
"I believe (in Christ as Messiah)." This is a statement of salvation.
Then as a believer in Christ, and concerning his son, who not even Christ's apostles could help, he cries out: "help my 'lack of faith.' (for my son to be healed'). To him it seemed like an impossibility for not even the apostles had the power to do so. Is it any wonder that he had some doubt about the power to heal here!!
He had no doubt or confidence in his faith that Christ was the Messiah, and said "I believe" asserting his belief in Christ--salvation.
Do not deny the scriptures here. I believe, NOT "God believed for me."

Everything with you is either a general statement, poetical language, anthropomorphic language, or something that has not yet been fulfilled and it belongs to Israel. I wonder why you always deflect with such rubbish?

As you demonstrated in James chapter two you have a propensity to ignore the context even at the expense of trying to justify the principles of TULIP at any expense.
Yes, there are statements that are general and some specific.
There are anthropomorphisms, poetical language, figures of speech, unfulfilled eschatological promises, etc. If we don't study: language, historical background, the author, his purpose for writing, the overall context and the specific context, etc. how will we ever come to the proper conclusion of what the passage means? It is called "Hermeneutics."

Wrong again, mon ami. James stated What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? You need to take that up with God.

I already have. Look above. I quoted the verse to you already.
That bolded statement was a rhetorical question. Again you are ignoring context. Who is James writing to. What is he talking about? He is not speaking about the need of salvation to these believers. Or have you denied eternal security?
Why do you think I mentioned the difference between Perseverance and Preservation?

Yes. The works they do, even their believing in God unto the saving of their souls, are wrought by God. His sheep were known unto Him from before the creation of the world. Those are the one He died for, shed His blood for, was buried three days and nights for, ascended to the Father for, and will come back for.

Again, a denial of justification by faith, salvation by faith.
We are not saved by works. It is Christ that saves, not our works.

Tell me your view on the parable of the "Prodigal son"?
Was he a son before he went astray or did he become a son only after he came back and was "reclaimed."
Was he really "prodigal" as the name says--a son gone astray--backslidden?
Or was he a lost person, and then somehow became a son when he came home?
Which interpretation is the correct one?

Again, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

Yes, he put his faith in Christ. Christ was the object of his faith.
His unbelief was related in the power to heal his son whom the apostles could not heal. All Christians go through times of unbelief. If you say they don't I don't believe you. We lose our confidence, at times, that God will not fulfill his end of the deal in our Christian lives. We become discouraged. No one is perfect and without sin.

This is carnal faith, the 'something I can do' faith.

Faith is faith.
For the believer Paul said:
"I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me."
Yes, "the I can faith," is exactly what the Lord intends the believer to have. "I can" but it is through Christ, with the help of Christ.
The Calvinist doesn't believe that because he is a monergist.
He must say: "God works through me." I do nothing; it is God. Thus he takes no responsibility. But that is not what Paul said. Paul said, "I do..." He took responsibility. He always said: "I pray..." I was in the market witnessing..." How many times does he use the first person singular. Constantly. The Lord strengthened him as he worked. That is synergism.

Carnal faith vs supernatural God-given faith? You decide.

Faith is faith. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that God gives man faith; or that regeneration gives one faith. That is an illusion.

And it is God who has enabled them to do those good works.

No that is not true.
I visited people in the hospital before I was saved.
I visited people in the hospital after I was saved.
God did not enable me to visit people in the hospital. How could you come to such a conclusion as that. Good works is not an enablement of the Spirit.
Believers do good works or ought to do good works because they are believers and have more of a desire to do good works. It shouldn't be so much of a duty, but rather a pleasure, even rejoicing while doing them.

"Help me overcome my unbelief!"

Just continue to ignore context as usual.

And w/o God first working a will and do in his life, he will never look to Christ.

This is what you call regeneration. It has no biblical basis, and is more comparable to mysticism.
However, if you mean that the Holy Spirit is doing his work, per John 16:8-11, by convicting the sinner of his sin, then I will agree with you.

The unregenerate always look to any and everybody but God. They want nothing to do with God in an unregenerate state. Serving Him was the low man on my totem pole, monsieur, when He sought me out and drew me to Him. In fact, I was going the other way and He overtook me and change my will and my desires.

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. It is the conviction of sin that a person may first come under, and then he comes to Christ. Regeneration can occur only after one puts their faith in the gospel.

Peter made that very clear:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[DHK]

And all of these have natural, fleshly attributes, too. I had a hope of getting home, of making it to work, of doing the task set before me, as a sinner, but Christ being my Hope is a completely different Hope altogether. I love my family, but the love I have for Him is way deeper. Plus, you love your wife differently than you do your kids. You love your kids differently than you do your parents. You love your parents differently than you do your aunts and uncles. You love your aunts and uncles differently than you do you friends, &c. You parents, wife, kids, relatives, friends bring a lot of joy into your life, but the joy God brings is way different. The first examples of hope, love, and joy is carnal, fleshly; whereas the second examples are supernatural, God-given.

I agree. But they do know what it means to have faith, hope and love. It is just not on the same plane as the believer. That is all I am pointing out here.
Thus the unregenerate does have faith. His faith is simply in the wrong person or thing. But it is faith.

The love, joy and hope of a child is a whole lot more different than those attributes placed in Christ, monsieur.

They are an illustration. Jesus used the illustration.

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

--Little children act in simple innocent faith.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,[1 Tim. 1:1] Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.[Col. 1:24-27] No they do not. Jesus Christ is the only Hope that truly matters. He is the only Hope the saved have. Paul told them at Ephesus Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.[Eph. 2:11-13] Sinners have no hope if they remain in their sinful state mon ami. Those who die lost die w/o hope, therefore, not all men have hope.

I am not here to argue with your dissertation on hope.
Like faith, hope has an object. The unsaved rest their hope on the wrong things instead of Christ, or the coming of Christ. Their hope is on a better president, a better economy, someone to lead them out of this economic chaos, etc. But they do have hope, per se. They do know what it is.

Without God first drawing them, causing them to lift their eyes upwards towards Him, they will never experience this Hope. Those who die lost, die hopeless. Monsieur, not all men have hope.

Not all men have hope in Christ.
Let's keep things in their proper context.

The unregenerate do not have agape love. The unregenerate have a love that 'if you love me I will love you back, but when you double-cross me, or do something evil to me, I am done with you." The unregenerate have a conditional love whereas agape love is unconditional.

If you ask for a good definition of love it will or should be something like this:
It is a self-sacrificial giving of one's self. (That is very brief, but it is what Christ did for us).
Is that true of some people in the world? Yes. Some mothers have sacrificed their lives for their children. Some fathers have sacrificed their lives for their families. Some soldiers have sacrificed their lives for their fellow-soldier if not their nation. We have examples in the world that fit that same definition of "love."

Carnal vs. agape love are not even in the same time zone, monsieur. A lot of times when a spouse cheats, they end up divorced. Sometimes they reconcile, but that marriage a lot of times is never the same. Why? Even though they may have forgiven their cheating spouse, there is a level of mistrust, especially if they happen to be late coming home. The agape love is unconditional. God knew we were playing the harlot, serving satan and not Him, but He unconditionally loves us and forgave us of our sins.

Do you accuse Christ of being carnal because he did not always use the word of agape. You are deliberately avoiding the central truth here. Christ used the word "philew" when he addressed Peter: "Do you love me"? Was he being carnal? By your reasoning you say he was.
In the Greek this word is used in a carnal sense, at least in the sense that you are using it in. As you say, "They are not even in the same time zone," but Christ used it of Peter." Conclusion: Christ is carnal. Is that right?

Never stated his faith was a work. His faith was a work of God opening his eyes, ears and heart to see who Jesus was, hear His words, and receive Him as Lord and Saviour. This is the work of God, that you believe upon the One He sent.

But that is not what the verse teaches. That is what you read into the verse.
Faith is the only "work" one can do. Since faith is not a work, per se, Salvation is not of works. Simply believe and you shall have eternal life. This is what is taught consistently throughout the gospel of John. It is the conclusion and theme of the book.

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK, these posts keep getting longer and longer, so to keep them from becoming a second volume of the encyclopedia brittanica, I will just hit some high points of your posts.


Everything to you is either RCC or Jewish it appears, and nothing in between. What I mean is that faith without works is dead. Us believing that Jesus is Christ is a work of God.[Jn. 6:29] It is like starting a new car. That new car can really fly if someone inserts and turns the key. This in turn engages the starter, which then fires the sparkplugs, with then cause an ignition of fire that starts the motor. The car started, yes, but at the unctioning of some outside force that car did not have. The car started, but not before what I sequenced. That is the way with the unregenerate. They are spiritually dead and unless God 'starts them up', they will never be able to run(come to Him). The sinner can not approach God unless He first quickens them, just like Lazarus could not 'come out' before Jesus called Him out.

Again, faith w/o works is dead. God-given faith ushers in God-given works, working of the Spirit I mean, and this produces salvation.

And this continual accusation of me denying justification by faith salvation by faith needs to stop NOW!! I have never said such rubbish before. That is quite unbecoming of you a moderator. You abuse your privileges on here, mon ami. Shame on you.

Justification by faith, faith that is God-given. If man possesses faith then he justified himself and not God.


I will stop here. I see no further point debating this with you. You are right and I am wrong, in your view. You will take my words and mangle them anyways.


Adieu, mon ami.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

Thus the unregenerate does have faith.

Yeah but its worthless in the matters of God and Spiritual things, it cant please God Rom 8:8, its not the Faith that is needed to come to God and Please Him Heb 11:6 !

So why bring it up in matters of Salvation ? Its worthless !

 

[percho]

DHK, these posts keep getting longer and longer, so to keep them from becoming a second volume of the encyclopedia brittanica, I will just hit some high points of your posts.


Everything to you is either RCC or Jewish it appears, and nothing in between. What I mean is that faith without works is dead. Us believing that Jesus is Christ is a work of God.[Jn. 6:29] It is like starting a new car. That new car can really fly if someone inserts and turns the key. This in turn engages the starter, which then fires the sparkplugs, with then cause an ignition of fire that starts the motor. The car started, yes, but at the unctioning of some outside force that car did not have. The car started, but not before what I sequenced. That is the way with the unregenerate. They are spiritually dead and unless God 'starts them up', they will never be able to run(come to Him). The sinner can not approach God unless He first quickens them, just like Lazarus could not 'come out' before Jesus called Him out.

Again, faith w/o works is dead. God-given faith ushers in God-given works, working of the Spirit I mean, and this produces salvation.

And this continual accusation of me denying justification by faith salvation by faith needs to stop NOW!! I have never said such rubbish before. That is quite unbecoming of you a moderator. You abuse your privileges on here, mon ami. Shame on you.

Justification by faith, faith that is God-given. If man possesses faith then he justified himself and not God.


I will stop here. I see no further point debating this with you. You are right and I am wrong, in your view. You will take my words and mangle them anyways.


Adieu, mon ami.

I agree with you.


For we are his workmanship, created (Does not, the grace through the faith, salvation, fall here?) in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If God ordained it, will it not come to be?

 

[DHK]

DHK, these posts keep getting longer and longer, so to keep them from becoming a second volume of the encyclopedia brittanica, I will just hit some high points of your posts.


Everything to you is either RCC or Jewish it appears, and nothing in between. What I mean is that faith without works is dead. Us believing that Jesus is Christ is a work of God.[Jn. 6:29] It is like starting a new car. That new car can really fly if someone inserts and turns the key. This in turn engages the starter, which then fires the sparkplugs, with then cause an ignition of fire that starts the motor. The car started, yes, but at the unctioning of some outside force that car did not have. The car started, but not before what I sequenced. That is the way with the unregenerate. They are spiritually dead and unless God 'starts them up', they will never be able to run(come to Him). The sinner can not approach God unless He first quickens them, just like Lazarus could not 'come out' before Jesus called Him out.

I use this illustration over and over again.

I have faith in the word of the Ford motor company (their manual), that as they say, if I put my key into the ignition and turn it, my car will start. And so it did. First time.
I have faith that my car will continue to start every time I put my key in the ignition put of the "relationship" I have developed with my car (or experience). It hasn't failed me (except a couple of times and then I had to change the battery). It is man-made and thus fallible. God is perfect and his promises never fail.
Faith is faith. The object of my faith in this car specifically in the first case was the word of the Ford motor company. In the second case it was my relationship with the car.
The object of my faith in salvation is Christ. In my Christian walk it is strengthened because of my relationship with him.

Again a definition of faith is given here:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

--Faith is simply confidence in the word of another--being fully persuaded what (God or another person) has promised, he is able to perform. That is faith.
--This is from the OT when Abraham lived. There was no regeneration in the OT. Define regeneration. It specifically applies only to NT believers. It is a NT theological term. Therefore it is impossible for Abraham to receive faith via regeneration.

Again, faith w/o works is dead. God-given faith ushers in God-given works, working of the Spirit I mean, and this produces salvation.

The Catholics use this verse too. Faith produces works. Keep in mind the context. Mother Teresa had many good works. What "faith" produced them?
As I said, you are using this verse out of context. You are ignoring Romans chapter four which contradicts this passage in the way that you are using it.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
--Abraham had works but they did not justify him. They had nothing to do with his faith.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To him that does not works at all, but simply believes, that one is the one that is justified before God. Works don't count one iota when salvation is considered. You are using the passage in James as a Catholic would and it contradicts the Word of God when speaking about salvation.

And this continual accusation of me denying justification by faith salvation by faith needs to stop NOW!! I have never said such rubbish before. That is quite unbecoming of you a moderator. You abuse your privileges on here, mon ami. Shame on you.

This is a debate forum, and there is no rules against moderators entering into the debate. I have said nothing wrong. Don't be so thin-skinned.
You are using a book on the practical Christian life, speaking of the Christian walk and not salvation, to try to speak about salvation which is wrong. It clearly contradicts Romans chapter four has I have just demonstrated. You have a propensity of taking scripture out of context to defend your Calvinism.

Justification by faith, faith that is God-given. If man possesses faith then he justified himself and not God.

Show me one scripture, taken in its proper context that shows that faith is given to the regenerated. You can't do it, and haven't done it yet.
Nicodemus was not regenerated. What did he need? He needed to believe as Jesus said later on in John 3:16. He needed to believe--"whosoever believeth on him" has everlasting life. That is what he needed in order to be regenerated. Not Christ nor any other person was going to give him regeneration in order that he may believe on Christ.

I will stop here. I see no further point debating this with you. You are right and I am wrong, in your view. You will take my words and mangle them anyways.

God doesn't force "the elect" to believe. But a Calvinist must believe that because they are "elect" before the foundation of the world, therefore there is nothing they can do about it. No use praying about, witnessing to them, having any care about whatsoever. They are going to be elect anyway whether you do anything about it or not. They are elect before the foundation of the world. You are a monergist devoid of any responsibility before God. That is in a sad place to be my friend.

 

[Iconoclast]

deleted: off topic.

 

[Iconoclast]

edited: off topic.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK, these posts keep getting longer and longer, so to keep them from becoming a second volume of the encyclopedia brittanica, I will just hit some high points of your posts.


Everything to you is either RCC or Jewish it appears, and nothing in between. What I mean is that faith without works is dead. Us believing that Jesus is Christ is a work of God.[Jn. 6:29] It is like starting a new car. That new car can really fly if someone inserts and turns the key. This in turn engages the starter, which then fires the sparkplugs, with then cause an ignition of fire that starts the motor. The car started, yes, but at the unctioning of some outside force that car did not have. The car started, but not before what I sequenced. That is the way with the unregenerate. They are spiritually dead and unless God 'starts them up', they will never be able to run(come to Him). The sinner can not approach God unless He first quickens them, just like Lazarus could not 'come out' before Jesus called Him out.

Again, faith w/o works is dead. God-given faith ushers in God-given works, working of the Spirit I mean, and this produces salvation.

And this continual accusation of me denying justification by faith salvation by faith needs to stop NOW!! I have never said such rubbish before. That is quite unbecoming of you a moderator. You abuse your privileges on here, mon ami. Shame on you.

Justification by faith, faith that is God-given. If man possesses faith then he justified himself and not God.


I will stop here. I see no further point debating this with you. You are right and I am wrong, in your view. You will take my words and mangle them anyways.


Adieu, mon ami.

:wavey::laugh::wavey: clear and helpful post

 

[SaggyWoman]

I got this. I close this.

New thread.

 

[SaggyWoman]

While everything for the most part in this tread was said appropriately, I am closing it because

1. People complaining.

2. It is long.

3. New thread needs to be started.