Featured Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

So every professed member of your church is definitely saved? No as a matter of fact Paul didn't call him a brother Paul said if any man that is called a brother do any of the sinful things don't associate with them

 

You are not looking at all the evidence.
First, the fact that Paul spent so much time directing the church to "discipline this brother" indicates that he was a "brother in Christ," a Christian. Paul specifically stated: "1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without?" (vs.12). If he was unsaved he would be technically "outside" the assembly of believers. Paul would have nothing to do with him. The assembly is not those within four walls of a building. They didn't even have church buildings. They met mostly in houses. He was to be put out of their congregation.
Secondly, why doesn't Paul say anything about the woman that he was having relations with? Why wasn't she disciplined? Probably because she wasn't saved. The unsaved person is not disciplined out of the church because they were never in the church and there is no authority to discipline an unsaved person out of the church. They aren't part of it. How do you discipline someone who is not a Christian out of a Christian assembly? You are not making sense.

How would a Mulvi (Muslim Cleric) discipline a Christian out of his mosque? How would the Hindu priest discipline a Christian out of his temple? These questions don't make sense. And yet you ask: How does the church discipline an unbeliever out of its congregation. They don't. They toss him out. There is no procedure.
Paul gave them step by step procedure, and then afterward he was accepted back in. He went out as a brother and came back in as a brother, a brother who had repented from his sin of fornication.

 

You continue to miss this verse:

1 Corinthains 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This man was saved, Paul said he should be turned over to satan to die. Why would he die if he belonged to satan? But if he belonged to Christ and refused to repent of practicing his sin then he would be turned over to satan for destruction but the spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord.

Then you have these two,
1 Timothy 1:
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Believers guilty of Blaspheme, putting away the faith and made shipwreck, carnal, guilty of blasphemy as believers and turned of to satan to learn as believers not to blaspheme. Paul wouldn't need to turn unbelievers over to satan for destruction, nor for them to learn not to blaspheme because they are condemned already.

 

"DHK,

Lets start where Paul did....

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Why did he say this? Because people living in fornication go to hell.They are unsaved...in chapter 6 9-11 he highlights it....

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
He is not talking about general fornicators.....he is speaking of this one person here among the saints!

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

If any that is CALLED a brother......he does not say ...HE IS A BROTHER...he is CALLED a brother

if any that is called a brother be a FORNICATOR........THESE IS NO.....FORNICATORS FOR JESUS.. fornicators go to hell.




now lets add 12, 13.....it comes out much clearer than your fragmented post.....

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
He calls him "that wicked person"......put him away from yourselves

.

No need for useless speculation....nothing said she was trying to be in the church at all, so carnal speculation is not warranted.

False professers are put out.

Of course these questions do not make sense....they are your questions
Who thinks of these red herrings but you,lol

I did not ask this at all. I just pointed out paul says remove this person...he did not say put him under church discipline....he says remove that wicked person from you.

He was to be put out...as a wicked unsaved person.

Whatever happened to this guy, did not happen here in 1 cor 5.....

He went out an unrepentant fornicator...unsaved...that is all we see here....put out that wicked person.




paul already addressed all your questions previous two verse 12
he said I would have you not to company with fornicators yet not all together with the fornicators in this world but you have to go out of the world he already answered that question
so when the issue comes up about this man living in fornication there's no questions like put them out if the man doesn't repent you put them out until a man repents you have no no reason to believe he is a brother


"revmwc,

This is not conclusive that the results were guaranteed.

You do not know that he was saved....

You do not know that they were saved. Paul mentioned another man Alexander the coppersmith and asked the Lord to judge him according to his works

 

Your sarcasm is noted as well as your lack of scripture.
You quoted Icon:

I never gave him an answer. But the answer is yes, they are saved.
In our "non-cal" church we believe the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.
The Calvinist tells me over and over again that "he is one of the elect," and often that "faith is a work."
How does he know he is one of the elect? They quote 2Pet.1:10,
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
"Examine yourself," "Make sure of your election," etc.
The Calvinist is never sure of his salvation; never can be really sure if he is one of the elect.
He has to constantly examine himself to see if he is one of the elect.
Quote the entire verse:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
--For if you do these things you shall never fail.
In truth then Calvinism believes in a religion of works. It is not eternal security, salvation by faith, but rather salvation based on works. And if the works are not good enough you don't have salvation. The Calvinist just can never be assured of their salvation.

Before criticizing.me too harshly, I challenge you to go back to your beloved Puritans and read their biographies. This is the problem many of them dealt with. They never had any real assurance of salvation. At the end of it all they felt they were never good enough, never holy enough to enter heaven when the hour of death came. There was no assurance for them because of this ultra-Calvinistic belief system.

In our church salvation is by faith. Just as the Paul told the jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Every one of our members is able to give a testimony of their salvation. They know when they were saved, how they were saved. They know for a fact that they were sinners, that Christ came, by the power of his Spirit indwelt them, changed them and continues to conform them to his image. They are His work. And what transformation there has been. They are not ashamed to share their testimony with others as they witness for the Lord. Yes, I know they are saved.

I am also thankful that I follow the Bible and not the doctrines of men such as Paul Washer.

 

DHK,

Your sarcasm is noted as well as your lack of scripture.
You quoted Icon:

I never gave him an answer. But the answer is yes, they are saved.
In our "non-cal" church we believe the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.
The Calvinist tells me over and over again that "he is one of the elect," and often that "faith is a work."
How does he know he is one of the elect? They quote 2Pet.1:10,
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
"Examine yourself," "Make sure of your election," etc.
The Calvinist is never sure of his salvation; never can be really sure if he is one of the elect.
He has to constantly examine himself to see if he is one of the elect.
Quote the entire verse:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
--For if you do these things you shall never fail.
In truth then Calvinism believes in a religion of works. It is not eternal security, salvation by faith, but rather salvation based on works. And if the works are not good enough you don't have salvation. The Calvinist just can never be assured of their salvation.

Before criticizing.me too harshly, I challenge you to go back to your beloved Puritans and read their biographies. This is the problem many of them dealt with. They never had any real assurance of salvation. At the end of it all they felt they were never good enough, never holy enough to enter heaven when the hour of death came. There was no assurance for them because of this ultra-Calvinistic belief system.

In our church salvation is by faith. Just as the Paul told the jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Every one of our members is able to give a testimony of their salvation. They know when they were saved, how they were saved. They know for a fact that they were sinners, that Christ came, by the power of his Spirit indwelt them, changed them and continues to conform them to his image. They are His work. And what transformation there has been. They are not ashamed to share their testimony with others as they witness for the Lord. Yes, I know they are saved.

As is Paul Washer does not...lol....I do not hear of people listening to your sermons....where are your sermons anyhow?
An easy believism profession is a dime a dozen today and the fact is you do not know anyone of them is saved anymore than anyone else does.

In truth you do not know what you are talking about to say such nonsense.

The Calvinist believes in the biblical teaching of Election and seeks to obey this lawful command. You have denied individual election to salvation several times on here, and this is probably a verse and a duty.....your 100% saved church has never heard of much less obeyed.

Do you have any recording of your teaching that you could make available.
I would enjoy your avoidance of all such verses we rejoice in.

I would listen, unlike you when I offer you links.[/QUOTE]

 

You are mixing up the context of disciplining a member who is in sin, with scripture speaking of an entirely different topic. No wonder you are so confused. Keep things in context.
Did the woman at the well in John chapter four go to heaven or hell? She was a "fornicator." In fact she had eight husbands! and the one she had at the time Christ spoke to her was not her own! But there is not reason to believe not to believe her testimony:

Joh 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
--And that testimony convinced others to come to Christ.

IOW, you are taking the statement out of its context.
Paul is saying if there is a fornicator in your church don't keep company with him. Follow the instructions of Jesus as per Matthew 18:15-19. When the final decision is reached what does Jesus say:
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
That disciplined person (a believer) is to be treated just as the Jews treated the tax collectors and the Gentiles in general. They wouldn't socialize with them, go to their houses, eat with them. They were ostracized. Their fellowship with the Christian community was cut off.

This is speaking of "the rapture." It is speaking of sinners in general, not of saints, or members of the church. If they had to avoid "the fornicators of the world, etc...." then the rapture would have to take place. "They would have to be "taken out of the world where no sin is.

So do liars Icon, so do liars! But the fact is that all men lie.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--It is easy to misuse scripture as you have done. All Christians sin, some have even committed fornication whether we like to admit it or not. I am glad it is God and not you who judges who gets into heaven and who does not. The Bible teaches that we get to heaven by his grace. It is not by works, neither are we kept out by certain deeds or misdeeds. You describe a religion of works.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
--He claims to be a brother. The church must take him at his word and proceed on that basis. The instructions of Jesus must be put into place. God knows whether he is a carnal Christian, a backslidden Christian, or an unbeliever. God will make that decision. The church's responsibility is to carry out the instructions of Christ per Mat.18:15-21. If he does not repent of his sin, then:

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
--Now the brother who lives in sin is treated as a heathen and publican--don't "eat with such a one."

There are many "wicked Christians." The phrase is not relegated to the unsaved.
Paul is very emphatic in these two verses (12,13), that we are to judge those within (the members of the church only! That is why this man is a believer. This "wicked person" is an unrepentant believer that needs to be disciplined according to Mat.18:15-20.
What have we to do with those that are without??
We don't judge those without the assembly, outside of our own local churches?
What do you think?
Did Paul go into the Temple of Diana and judge the temple prostitutes, trying to implement Christian discipline in an idolatrous temple? Does it even make sense? No. We don't judge them "that are without"--the unsaved, not part of the church. The brother was a saved man. Those without, the unsaved, God will judge. We put them in God's hands.

Two guilty parties. It took two people to have an illicit affair. And only once was pronounced guilty??
Why? Probably because only one was saved. Only one was under the authority of the church. The other was "without."

In our church false professors are never in. How do they get in your church?
The questions don't make sense to you because you are not following logic.

 

"DHK

This is one of your worst posts yet...this is really bad.....you should delete this before anyone see's it. I will not tell them you posted this
Someone is BADLY CONFUSED.....and I know who it is

This lame attempt to avoid your posted error is not going to fly.....This woman was not a professed believer until Jesus effectually dealt with her...so this has nothing to do with this topic.....very sad attempt on your part.
You realize that people are going to cringe and then giggle at what you wrote here don't you.

I could not have been more on context unless I was the Apostle Paul himself.

Paul was dealing with this one fornicator, and then by way of instruction and application we are taught how to deal with others in the same situation.

This was not the situation in 1 cor 5.....the person was described by Paul as "that wicked person"

Good one.......the rapture indeed...you have rapture fever

Another verse you completely miss.....he is saying you cannot avoid being around fornicators as long as we live in the sin cursed earth.....so he is telling them that is not what he is talking about

lol...take a poll DHK.....see who the readers think is misusing scripture

yes they do

some have

I am glad God is the judge.

see...you have learned something....keep coming to the light...

Those who do not enter heaven are denied based on their works...or lack of works done in the body....if you knew the scriptures you would not post such a foolish and contra biblical thought.....that is why I am forced to oppose you so often....
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

and then mt25;
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

You should not be teaching anyone with so much error in your thoughts

If he was in your church you would know he was saved as you have a 100% saved rate
I guess Paul did not think like you do....just saying!

not sure what you are thinking of...

there is no such thing

there is no such thing...biblically a backslider is an apostate

yes..he was

He did...the Spirit allowed Paul to say' remove that wicked person

The word wicked is the same word used for the ungodly in psalm 1;
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

King James Version (KJV)

The wicked and ungodly perish.....

whoosh....that is the sound of that verse going right past you

I see.....so now no false professors get into your church?????

then I suggest all other Pastors stop preaching and only you preach on TV and radio and the internet, and anyone who is saved can go to your church and then there will be no false converts at all.....100% conversion Does anyone at all believe DHK on this??? Can anyone believe he posts this????

 

So the Holy Spirit would tell us through the Apostle, that "1 Corinthains 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

The Greek here the word "hina" means that, in order that so that, pnuema that in some cases speaking of the human soul that has left the body, sozo Kept safe. In other words Paul said a believer who walks in the flesh and refuses to repent will be turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh, so that the soul might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Someone who belongs to satan, that is an unbeliever needs not be turned over to satan.
We know that 1 Corinthians 3 verse 1 Paul said they were carnal that is believers walking in the flesh.

Calvin in his commentary on the 1 Corinthians 3 states this:"
Hence, with the view of beating down so much the better their insolence, he declares, that they belong to the company of those who, stupefied by carnal sense, are not prepared to receive the spiritual wisdom of God. He softens down, it is true, the harshness of his reproach by calling them brethren, but at the same time he brings it forward expressly as a matter of reproach against them, that their minds were suffocated with the darkness of the flesh to such a degree that it formed a hindrance to his preaching among them. What sort of sound judgment then must they have, when they are not fit and prepared as yet even for hearing! He does not mean, however, that they were altogether carnal, so as to have not one spark of the Spirit of God — but that they had still greatly too much of carnal sense, so that the flesh prevailed over the Spirit, and did as it were drown out his light. Hence, although they were not altogether destitute of grace, yet, as they had more of the flesh than of the Spirit, they are on that account termed carnal This sufficiently appears from what he immediately adds — that they were babes in Christ; for they would not have been babes had they not been begotten, and that begetting is from the Spirit of God.

Babes in Christ This term is sometimes taken in a good sense, as it is by Peter, who exhorts us to be like new-born babes, (1 Peter 2:2,) and in that saying of Christ,

Unless ye become as these little children,
ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God, (Luke 18:17.)

Here, however, it is taken in a bad sense, as referring to the understanding. For we must be children in malice, but not in understanding, as he says afterwards in 1 Corinthians 14:20, — a distinction which removes all occasion of doubt as to the meaning. To this also there is a corresponding passage in Ephesians 4:14."

Matthew Henry states in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 3:
"Paul blames the Corinthians for their weakness and nonproficiency. Those who are sanctified are so only in part: there is still room for growth and increase both in grace and knowledge, 2 Peter 3:18. Those who through divine grace are renewed to a spiritual life may yet in many things be defective. The apostle tells them he could not speak to them as unto spiritual men, but as unto carnal men, as to babes in Christ, 1 Corinthians 3:1. They were so far from forming their maxims and measures upon the ground of divine revelation, and entering into the spirit of the gospel, that is was but too evident they were much under the command of carnal and corrupt affections. They were still mere babes in Christ. They had received some of the first principles of Christianity, but had not grown up to maturity of understanding in them, or of faith and holiness; and yet it is plain, from several passages in this epistle, that the Corinthians were very proud of their wisdom and knowledge....He blames them for their carnality, and mentions their contention and discord about their ministers as evidence of it: For you are yet carnal; for whereas there are among you envyings, and strifes, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians 3:3. They had mutual emulations, and quarrels, and factions among them, upon the account of their ministers, while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:4. These were proofs of their being carnal, that fleshly interests and affections too much swayed them. Note, Contentions and quarrels about religion are sad evidences of remaining carnality. True religion makes men peaceable and not contentious. Factious spirits act upon human principles, not upon principles of true religion; they are guided by their own pride and passions, and not by the rules of Christianity: Do you not walk as men? Note, It is to be lamented that many who should walk as Christians, that is, above the common rate of men, do indeed walk as men, live and act too much like other men."

Calvin and Henry agree believers can be and many are carnal. Their actions show it.

 

I read the same quote you offer here but see and understand it different from you. ....they are describing this one act of sin from non mature believers. ....not a settled way of life.

 

Henry states not of 1 Corinthians 5 and the one man's act but of 1 Corinthans 3:
"He blames them for their carnality, and mentions their contention and discord about their ministers as evidence of it:"

How do you see it as this one act?

Then Henry also stated
"They were so far from forming their maxims and measures upon the ground of divine revelation, and entering into the spirit of the gospel, that is was but too evident they were much under the command of carnal and corrupt affections. They were still mere babes in Christ. They had received some of the first principles of Christianity, but had not grown up to maturity of understanding in them, or of faith and holiness; and yet it is plain, from several passages in this epistle, that the Corinthians were very proud of their wisdom and knowledge....He blames them for their carnality, and mentions their contention and discord about their ministers as evidence of it: For you are yet carnal; for whereas there are among you envyings, and strifes, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians 3:3. They had mutual emulations, and quarrels, and factions among them, upon the account of their ministers, while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:4. These were proofs of their being carnal, that fleshly interests and affections too much swayed them. Note, Contentions and quarrels about religion are sad evidences of remaining carnality."

No way he sees it as just that one act, all of these are evidences of carnality. We have many churches in our nation that are full of these things, many believers haven't grown into maturity because pastor fail to teach them the deep things of the Word. Many can't take it in and many turn from the truth all signs of carnality.

 

When I say they see it as one act what I'm talking about is that caught up in this arguing over which person they favor it is not saying that they live their whole life based on carnality day in day out in every area of life.
he's talking about this one area of sin.

 

Point out which one area is speaking of please:

"They were so far from forming their maxims and measures upon the ground of divine revelation, and entering into the spirit of the gospel, that is was but too evident they were much under the command of carnal and corrupt affections. They were still mere babes in Christ. They had received some of the first principles of Christianity, but had not grown up to maturity of understanding in them, or of faith and holiness; and yet it is plain, from several passages in this epistle, that the Corinthians were very proud of their wisdom and knowledge....He blames them for their carnality, and mentions their contention and discord about their ministers as evidence of it: For you are yet carnal; for whereas there are among you envyings, and strifes, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians 3:3. They had mutual emulations, and quarrels, and factions among them, upon the account of their ministers, while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:4. These were proofs of their being carnal, that fleshly interests and affections too much swayed them. Note, Contentions and quarrels about religion are sad evidences of remaining carnality."

 

That depends

 

Well I'm skinny enough and the truck has no low points it just might not harm you, if a tire catches a leg it will break the bone but externally after being healed may not change the appearance