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Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11). Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation.

The eternal phase is God's plan and choice from eternity to will that sin exist into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. This phase is seen here 2 Timothy 1:9, "9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"

The legal phase is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. This phase of salvation is here, "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" ( 1 Timothy 1:15)

The vital phase is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ's death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives. "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (Ephesians 2:5). (Notice also the individual "quickened" is said to be previously in a spiritual state of "dead in sins").

The practical phase is our response to His salvation. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now. "16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:16). This aspect of salvation is in time in our experience and God uses the means such as the written word and the preaching of gospel to accomplish it that is why Paul says in this verse by continuing in doctrine the hearer will "save thyself". This is also seen here, "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Acts 2:40). The gospel Peter was preaching was not saving the hearers eternally, but in time from the "untoward generation".

The final phase is that great day in the future when the elect shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Their bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future. "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." (Romans 13:11). I interpret both the verses you cited in Romans 10, Romans 10:9, "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" and Romans 10:13, "13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." are both referring to the final phase of salvation in that it says these people will be saved sometime in the future as those verses do not say "if you believe you become saved", but rather the believer "shall be saved".

Sorry again for another extremely long post, that is what happens to me when I am alone at a hotel
room!

Brother Joe

 

No problem, take your time. I am going to the movies now to see the new Rocky movie with Sylvester Stallone "Creed". (This is how I know I am getting old). LOL I won't be posting further for at least several hours so you can catch up in your replies.

 

I'm making popcorn then!

 

All three of us can go and see if Stallone dies of a heart attack due to old age.

 

Heathen! I'm calling PB HQ and sending them a screenshot of this!

 

While i agree with the phases, to an extent, i believe the Picture of Abraham finding a wife for his son Isaac is a good picture of the Sovereignty of God and also the Response of Man. And before i say that, i believe it is a simple concept to understand that because God is sovereign HE Chose to allow man to respond to His eternal Gospel of His Glorious Son Jesus the Christ.

We see that Abraham (God the Father) Sent his servant, his Eleazer (The Holy Spirit) to Find him a Bride (The Church) for his son (Jesus). Why? Because of his unconditional love for his only begotten son. So we see here the Purpose of God's plan for Salvation. It is a Glorious Expression of God the Father's infinite Love for His Son Through and Bound by the Holy Spirit. We see the Result of Abraham's love for his son Is finding a wife that would worship and adore him just as the Church Will Worship and Adore Jesus Christ. So Eleazer Goes to find Isaac a wife, using Abraham's standards (Grace through Faith). Eleazer Goes and finds Rebekah, Eleazer was told by God what to be looking for and Abraham also equipped him with essential things that would secure Isaac a wife (Conviction of sin, a means to pardon, An invitation into the Kingdom/Family of God?). We see that Rebekah was the one God gave to Eleazer to bring home to Isaac.

This is one Key part of this story. Did Eleazer Bind her up and take her back to Isaac? Did he drug her and steal her away? No, he gave her a choice. And Because of God's foreknowledge and by the Power of the Holy Spirit, He also gives us a choice and ability to "Come Unto Him." Eleazer Brought Rebekah to Isaac, Just as the Holy Spirit Draws us To Jesus.

I will finish up my posts in a bit...Bible Time with my Family!!!!

 

I think you are missing something here...All these spiritual realities are a Direct result of being "Accepted in the Beloved." We are "Hid with Christ in God." We have life because the Son has life, not because we were given life to have life. We are part of the "First Fruits from the Dead." We are sons because we are in Christ...we are one with the Son because we are the Bride of Christ. Putting one's faith in Christ brings us into those realities. Being Regenerated is a direct result of Faith, not the opposite.

John 3...Let's walk through It...

You must be born again...How so? Well it's all possible because of the Finished Work of Jesus Christ. We have pictures of that in the next few verses..All though we can't explain the supernatural occurrence, neither can we explain the supernatural occurrence of creation, we know it happened. That is why Christ says what He does about the Wind, the how is difficult to explain, but the why isn't...He gives us a good reference...

Moses and the Serpent on the Stick, One must first believe they have a need and believe that Looking on the Serpent causes them to avoid Death. We must also Agree with God that we are sinners (Confession) and that we deserve eternal damnation. The Holy Spirit causes us to see (opening the eyes of the blind) this reality. Then we respond, do we approach the serpent? To We Come to the Cross? Do we go outside the Camp, where Jesus is?

And we see this Good News is to be Believed...

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

Good luck finding the "headquarters" LOL! I suppose I would I have as much luck as locating the reformed Baptist headquarters that I see you are member of! LOL

 

HI Brother Jon,

First, I was wrong, Rocky actually lives and survives cancer in case you were interested. All kidding aside, I think you are doing a lot of spiritualization with the Elezer/Rebekah example in order to prove your doctrinal assertion of free will in regards to becoming born again. I do not see "ability" being present in the flesh in scripture because Paul stated, ".. the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7). If we both agree prior to being born again, one only possesses the carnal mind they inherit from Adam and they do not yet have the "mind of Christ", then how does their mind choose to subject itself to God's command that His elect repent and believe the gospel? If this were possible, then how can Romans 8:7 still be true?

 

I'm not a movie guy...only time I watch TV is if pro football is on or hunting. Hope you enjoyed it tho!

Spiritualization wasn't a word I had In mind, I'd say type or figure. But Spiritualization can be ok. I'm reminded of "The things that were written Aforetime..."

I'm a pretty Christocentric guy. I see the Gospel of Jesus Christ being explained and fulfilled in every chapter. We can discuss chapter and verse, I'm game as well.

Obeying the Gospel call is different than obeying the commands of God from a pure conscience (Titus 1). The Gospel Preached has power (Romans 1, 1 Cor. 1.) The Spirit of God works with the Word of God to accomplish the will of God. 2 Corinthians 4-5 reminds us that we have the power of God in earthen vessels and Speaking the Word of God has power (Hebrews 4:12.)

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And I think the context of 8 (pours over from 7) helps understand your concern. Unbelievers can do nothing to please God...

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Our works were once viewed as "filthy rags."

I do not see this as, "unbelievers are unable to believe the Gospel..."
And the "ability" of placing ones faith in Christ may be a universal grace...not sure why you think it is only limited to believers. One can place their faith in money or church attendance. One can place their faith/belief/yielded will to buddah. You are destroying the simplicity of the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

This "faith after regeneration" is truly bordering on "another gospel"...

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.



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Brother Jon,

Here is something to consider. Many who do not believe in the five points stress the necessity of "accepting" Jesus, but how does one become "accepted in the Beloved"? The one time scripture talks of one being "accepted", it is Christ who "hath" (past tense) made His children accepted. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" Thus we see it is Christ who through His sacrifice made His children accepted, not His children of their free will "accepting" Jesus into their heart.

Faith is a "fruit of the Spirit", not the cause of having the Spirit. The tree produces the fruit, not the other way around. Jesus is said to be the "author and finisher" of our faith. As far as your contention that regeneration is not a direct result of faith but the opposite, let's look at the father of faith Abraham who Paul set forth as an example of "justification by faith". Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15; Was Abraham born again prior to being justified by faith? Yes, look at the preceding chapters to see Abraham’s spiritual character.
O.T.examples:
Genesis: 11:31 Abraham (then Abram) leaves Ur to follow God’s will.
Genesis: 12.1 Abraham speaks verbally with God.
Genesis: 12.8 Abraham built an altar to God.
Genesis: 14.19 Melchisedec testified that Abraham was blessed by God.
Genesis: 14.10 Abraham gave tithes to Melchisedec, a priest to God.

N.T. example:
Hebrews 11.8 states that in Genesis 11.31 Abraham left Ur by faith. If Abraham had faith then he was already born again.Therefore Abraham had the Spirit when he left Ur 10 years before he was justified by faith.

Abraham was born again prior to being justified by faith as proven by his actions prior to Genesis 15, yet by believing God and thus being "justified by faith" in Genesis 15, Abraham was able to find peace and rest in God’s will for Abraham’s life, likewise a child of God also finds rest and consolation in the promises of God upon hearing and believing the gospel.

Christ's sacrifice didn't make salvation "possible", it guaranteed it for His people, "thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.". It says "shall" not "might", this means it isn't making it "possible", but rather making sure it "will" happen. Further, we know Jesus's mission was to "seek and to save that which was lost", but if some of the lost he came to "seek and to save" end up going to eternal damnation, then we must conclude he wasn't 100% successfully in His mission. Also, I will also note know scripture talks of the gospel as being an "offer".

Yes, I agree Jesus did compare one becoming born again to the wind, but why did he use that comparison? He tells us why, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit". If gospel regeneration is the truth, Jesus's analogy of becoming born again as being like unto the wind does not hold because then one could pinpoint the exact origin and time of when and how they became born again-the origin being the time the gospel was preached to the person and the time being the time the precise time the person had faith in the gospel, thus becoming born again would in no way be similar to as the wind coming and going since the person could then tell from "whence it cometh, and whither it goeth". On the other hand, if regeneration precedes faith in the gospel and is accomplished without the means of man sovereignly by the Holy Spirit "quickening" those dead in sins, then one couldn't tell a precise time and place they were regenerated and it such a manner Jesus's analogy to the wind being likened unto one being born of the spirit holds up perfectly.

Brother Jon, look again at verse 36 above that you quoted, specifically the part of the verse that says, "He that believeth on the Son hath (i.e. already has) everlasting life", it does not see that " He that believeth receives eternal life", but rather the person who believes it already "hath everlasting life", do you see the difference?

 

Brother John,

I have enjoyed our discussion, but we are going to have to agree to disagree (I find this is what most often occurs on Baptistboard) and just be content to agree we are brothers in Christ. As far as football, I am a Browns fan, so to say it has been a VERY bad year is an understatement! I am now going to "bow out of" the discussion at this point, perhaps brother Internet Theologian will continue it with you or maybe we can take it up some time Lord willing at a later date on some other thread. Have a good evening!


Brother Joe

 

Have a good evening, Bro. Joe. I enjoyed the discussion. I'm an eagles fan...we look terrible but have our playoff hopes Still alive! May Christ richly bless!

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Ok, I lied, I do have one final comment! I think this great debate comes down to one simple question-Is man before regeneration totally depraved? If the answer is yes, gospel regeneration can't be true, but if the answer is no it can. Personally I think scripture makes it clear from Genesis to Revelation that the flesh is totally depraved and I am leaving that as my final word on this thread.

 

At least you don't have a new quarterback and coach each year! Good night!

 

I'm not sure How I would classify what I believe on TD. I do know this...

John 12:32-36 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

God gives exactly what is necessary for Salvation.

Last question from me, did you grow up "in the church? "

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Hi Brother Jon,

Good question! In answer to it, all of my blood family with the exception of my immediate family are practicing Polish Roman Catholics. My mother and father were both Roman Catholic prior to leaving the church after my dad read Romans and saw their works gospel was contrary to scripture. I was baptized as a baby into the Roman Catholic church as were both my brother and sister. As a matter of fact, after I grew up I was looking through papers one day and actually found a baptismal certificate issued by the church declaring by "this act I became a child of God". What blasphemy!

My mother was actually a practicing nun in the Catholic church prior to meeting my dad and leaving the convent, but not the church. When I was in single digits both my parents left the Catholic church due to my dad's reading of Romans. Growing up my parents first attended an Assemblies of God denomination after the Catholics, then before I was a teenager they left and began attending Willow Creek Community Church pastored by Bill Hybels. This is a nondenominational contemporary church in the northwest suburbs of Chicago that has such things as "plays" and a "rock band" (I guess per this thread they would be classified as very "seeker friendly" by the world's definition). I am not sure if it still is, but at one time it was the largest single church in the U.S. My precollege journey ended by my parents and I attending a dispensationalist church. All of these churches I attended as a child preached a"free will" doctrine and the corresponding gospel regeneration of which I too believed.

When I was in college I attended a nondenominational church in the Atlanta metro area. Through my readings of the New Testament I began to believe in the doctrines of individual predestination of the elect to Heaven. The church I was attending at the time did not take a stance on this issue of predestination and I believe it is quite an important point of the gospel, thus I ceased attending the church in college and began researching online for churches that taught the doctrine of predestination. Through God's providence I ran across the Primitive Baptists. I became a baptized member after years of attending. We hold to all 5 points of the doctrines of graces. There are various factions of Primitive Baptists. I am a member of the branch that would be classified as "Predestinarians" or "absoluters" because we also hold to the predestination of all things. There are very few predestinarian Primitive Baptist churches throughout the country and we are by far outnumbered by the other various factions of Primitive churches throughout the county. (I will not get into all the various factions or their differing beliefs).

Every baptized "absoluter" Primitive church member I know (including all those in other churches throughout the county) were not born into these churches, but rather had a similar experience as mine, going from holding initially to a belief in a doctrine of free will theology, gospel regeneration, a universal atonement, into the doctrines of the five points of grace and the absolute predestination of all things. A good website that contains the general various beliefs of a typical Predestinarian Primitive Baptist church is http://asweetsavor.info/ . Each church is independent of each other, but the doctrine does not vary much from church to church if is of the Predestinarian variety.

What is your testimony and background brother?

 

Can you pin Down the moment you were saved? I'll share my testimony very soon

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Hi Brother Jon,

I know why I am saved, solely because Christ died and rose again for my sins and justification. This is the only thing I place my faith and hope in and plead. No, I cannot tell you a specific time I became born again. I do not label or consider myself a "Calvinist", but a "Christian" (just like you too said you wouldn't want classify yourself as either an "Arminian" or "Calvinist"). I believe for me to accept the label "Calvinist" would be equivalent to declaring I am a follower of John Calvin and not the Bible and also that the five points have their origin in Calvin's teachings, not the Bible. I think that most people who are called "Calvinist" would attest to your question that they cannot pinpoint an exact time they became born again in that they generally believe regeneration precedes faith in the gospel.

I think most people would label me "hyper-Calvinist" in my beliefs. That of course is usually, if not always, meant as a derogatory label whenever it is labeled on someone.