I've Made a Decision

[TCassidy]

I cannot clearly see Total Depravity in the scriptures.

So, what part of man do you believe was not affected by the fall and is thus righteous and able to approach God on its own merits?

Did his body remain pure and holy through the fall?

Did his soul (will, intellect, emotions) remain pure and holy through the fall?

Did his spirit remain pure and holy through the fall?

"Total Depravity" does mean everybody is a bad as he possibly could be, it means that every part of man, the total man, was affected by the fall.

 

[JonShaff]

So, what part of man do you believe was not affected by the fall and is thus righteous and able to approach God on its own merits?

Did his body remain pure and holy through the fall?

Did his soul (will, intellect, emotions) remain pure and holy through the fall?

Did his spirit remain pure and holy through the fall?

"Total Depravity" does mean everybody is a bad as he possibly could be, it means that every part of man, the total man, was affected by the fall.

Yes, everyone is affected and has sin nature. Total inability/depravity isn't clearly taught in scripture. If it is, please show me some verses? Because i've described two occurrences where Jesus Marveled at Their Faith AND Unbelief. If a man was "Totally Depraved" as if Light was impenetrable, Then why would Christ make those claims?

I am at work and will have to continue later, sorry. Have a blessed day in our Lord Jesus.

 

[TCassidy]

IF God caused unbelief

Simple. He didn't. It is the natural result of the fall.

 

[TCassidy]

Total inability/depravity isn't clearly taught in scripture. If it is, please show me some verses?

Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Jeremiah 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[TCassidy]

Then why would Christ make those claims?

Because there is a vast difference between saving faith and living faith.

 

[InTheLight]

Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Jeremiah 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Ez. 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

 

[InTheLight]

Simple. He didn't. It is the natural result of the fall.

The "natural" result? Really?

So it wasn't God's plan that humans would be depraved after the fall, it just "naturally" happened...

 

[JonShaff]

Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Jeremiah 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

To Whom is Jeremiah Speaking to? The audience and Context DOES NOT support TD. This is Terrible Exegesis....Next you're going to tell me that "God knows the plans for me..."

John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

And we see that Because Christ is lifted up, HE will draw all men to Him...The next Verse Shows that God the Father Will use the Porter (Holy Spirit) to bring Men into His fold...God uses the Preached Word of God to Give Light to the Hearer, To those who Do not Harden their Hearts..

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Paul is quoting the Psalmist, And We see clearly that No one is righteous. Furthermore, This is his concluding argument that EVERYONE NEEDS JESUS and is a sinner. Jew and Greek, he uses the poetic writings of the OT and their "fervent language" to over emphasize this. This doesn't mean that the Gospel Light can't cause someone to seek God. Total inability isn't supported here, this just simply means God will draw people with His Light (of the Gospel). Adding to the text your doctrine of TD is not necessary. See 1 Cor. 1, 2 Cor. 4-5, Heb. 4:12

Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

Once again, This doesn't mean that the The Word of God and the Spirit of God have no effect, you are just simply looking at it through the lens of Calvinism and not through proper exegesis.

Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

OK?

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

I will address this proof text when i have more time...but it is a continuation of "The Greek desire wisdom" and the "Jews seek a sign," and to the natural man, these things are stupid to them....but that doesn't mean that the Word of God and Spirit of God are impenetrable.

I will address more later, please forgive me. Have a blessed day in our Lord. Please note my responses in red.

 

[TCassidy]

I will address more later, please forgive me. Have a blessed day in our Lord. Please note my responses in red.

Wow! You have a LOT of reasons to not believe what the bible says!

 

[TCassidy]

The "natural" result? Really?

So it wasn't God's plan that humans would be depraved after the fall, it just "naturally" happened...

Yes. Now you are beginning to understand. That is what "fallen" means. The natural state of man went from innocence to depraved.

 

[InTheLight]

Yes. Now you are beginning to understand. That is what "fallen" means. The natural state of man went from innocence to depraved.

How? Who decided they would go from innocence to depravity?

 

[Iconoclast]

How? Who decided they would go from innocence to depravity?

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

 

[InTheLight]

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Yes or no. Was it God's plan that man would be totally depraved after the fall?

 

[JonShaff]

Wow! You have a LOT of reasons to not believe what the bible says!

How do you know you aren't part of the ones who "Doesn't have ears to hear" and that you are just parroting what sounds good to you?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes or no. Was it God's plan that man would be totally depraved after the fall?

God revealed to man His law, life, and fellowship in His untested yet pre-fallen state.[original righteousness]. In this verse in Gen. the severe consequence of rebellion was made abundantly clear. God meant what He said.

I believe God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

The fact that Jesus was mediator and surety before the world was indicates God had indeed considered mankind as fallen in Adam.....or creation could not have taken place.

Does this qualify as a yes or a no to you?

 

[Iconoclast]

How? Who decided they would go from innocence to depravity?

ITL,
God creates the law of gravity.

That law helps us....[we do not just float away into space]

Knowing the law exists you decide to step off the top of the empire state building despite being warned of the consequences of such action!

People looking at your splattered remains.......do they blame the law of gravity? or blame God because such a law and its consequences exist?
Did God push you off?

yes or no

or do we blame your parents for having you in the first place?

 

[JonShaff]

How does he know the law exists? He is "Totally Unable" to know spiritual things.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual:

Which doesn't mesh if we compare it to this...

Romans 1:19-21 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


How can there be such a great cause and effect If there is no choice???

God manifested Himself to them and they rejected Him...and then their hearts were darkened.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[Internet Theologian]

Yes, everyone is affected and has sin nature. Total inability/depravity isn't clearly taught in scripture. If it is, please show me some verses? Because i've described two occurrences where Jesus Marveled at Their Faith AND Unbelief. If a man was "Totally Depraved" as if Light was impenetrable, Then why would Christ make those claims?

I am at work and will have to continue later, sorry. Have a blessed day in our Lord Jesus.

When speaking of 'total' inability it is factual that none can come because they are unable. Salvation isn't mental assent to facts either, if it were the demons would be saved (James 2:19), so inability is deeper than ability to assent to data.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

It is not no man may, it is no man can which is inability not permission denied. We also only believe by the same power that raised Christ; Eph. 1:19 thus it is not inherent and innate or 'choice' as this power does not reside in man, and is external, belonging to Sovereign God. Perhaps unaware you are preaching a man centered soteriology basing salvation as in man's grasp and that he is able to secure it, telling man he is able. Scripture rejects that notion. It is all of God, not just 99.99999999% - all of it.

 

[JonShaff]

When speaking of 'total' inability it is factual that none can come because they are unable. Salvation isn't mental assent to facts either, if it were the demons would be saved (James 2:19), so inability is deeper than ability to assent to data.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

It is not no man may, it is no man can which is inability not permission. We also only believe by the same power that raised Christ; Eph. 1:19 thus it is not inherent and innate or 'choice' as this power does not reside in man, and is external, belonging to Sovereign God. Perhaps unaware you are preaching a man centered soteriology basing salvation as in man's grasp and that he is able to secure it, telling man he is able. Scripture rejects that notion. It is all of God, not just 99.99999999% - all of it.

I agree it is all God. Where did i say i Did anything supernatural?

Edit...Perhaps you are aware you ARE preaching a man-invented soteriology?

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonShaff,

How does he know the law exists? He is "Totally Unable" to know spiritual things.

Unsaved men "know things".....but because of sin they twist and distort the God given meaning and purpose to replace it with their own sinful desires and notions.
They can never come to a godly saving knowledge without the Spirit granting it to them.
Instead they invent things according to their rules......which translates to sinful idolatry;

See psalm 115

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual:

Which doesn't mesh if we compare it to this...

Romans 1:19-21 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This section describes mans universal and total depravity......here;
Because that, when they knew God,


they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image
made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie,
and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

How can there be such a great cause and effect If there is no choice???

Man makes choices even if his will is not free.

God manifested Himself to them and they rejected Him...and then their hearts were darkened.

They always do...psalm 14:1-3