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Featured Is Election Conditional?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Jan 22, 2016.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand what you are saying, brother, I just think Christ's comment is more encompassing than salvation being a matter of faith (building the Church on the faith of men). The Church (the Bride, the people of God) is constructed by principle of faith/belief/confession to include the contents of that confession (Christ) and how it is revealed (of God). I believe Jesus' statement encompasses Peters confession and Jesus' explanation of that confession.


    Sent from my TARDIS
     
    #41 JonC, Jan 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Peter statement was a statement of faith. Peter had full assurance that Jesus was the Savior.

    We see Calvins comment on this statement by Jesus:
    "And on this rock. Hence it is evident how the name Peter comes to be applied both to Simon individually, and to other believers. It is because they are founded on the faith of Christ, and joined together, by a holy consent, into a spiritual building, that God may dwell in the midst of them, (Ezekiel 43:7.) For Christ, by announcing that this would be the common foundation of the whole Church, intended to associate with Peter all the godly that would ever exist in the world. “You are now,” said he, “a very small number of men, and therefore the confession which you have now made is not at present supposed to have much weight; but ere long a time will arrive when that confession shall assume a lofty character, and shall be much more widely spread.” And this was eminently fitted to excite his disciples to perseverance, that though their faith was little known and little esteemed, yet they had been chosen by the Lord as the first-fruits, that out of this mean commencement there might arise a new Church, which would prove victorious against all the machinations of hell."

    Calvin is seems to be stating that by Peter statement of Faith the church would rise and be built upon that faith.

    John Gill, "...here, by the rock, is meant, either the confession of faith made by Peter; not the act, nor form, but the matter of it, it containing the prime articles of Christianity, and which are as immoveable as a rock; or rather Christ himself, who points, as it were, with his finger to himself, and whom Peter had made such a glorious confession of; and who was prefigured by the rock the Israelites drank water out of in the wilderness; and is comparable to any rock for height, shelter, strength, firmness, and duration; and is the one and only foundation of his church and people, and on whom their security, salvation, and happiness entirely depend. Christ is a rock that is higher than they, where they find safety in times of distress, and the shadow of which is refreshing to them; and therefore betake themselves to him for shelter, and where they are secure from the wrath of God, and rage of men: he is the rock of ages, in whom is everlasting strength; and is the sure, firm, and everlasting foundation on which the church, and all true believers, are laid: he is the foundation of their faith, and hope, and everlasting happiness, and will ever continue; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Jews speak of the gates of hell: sometimes of the gate of hell, in the singular numberF16; and sometimes of the gates of hell, in the plural number."

    Gill says it is either or that is it is the statement of Peter's Faith or Christ, he saw it could be either way.

    Henry's third point on this says,
    "Thirdly, Others by this rock understand this confession which Peter made of Christ, and this comes all to one with understanding it of Christ himself. It was a good confession which Peter witnessed, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God the rest concurred with him in it. "Now," saith Christ, "this is that great truth upon which I will build my church." 1. Take away this truth itself, and the universal church falls to the ground. If Christ be not the Son of God, Christianity is a cheat, and the church is a mere chimera our preaching is vain, your faith is vain, and you are yet in your sins, 1 Corinthians 15:14-17. If Jesus be not the Christ, those that own him are not of the church, but deceivers and deceived. 2. Take away the faith and confession of this truth from any particular church, and it ceases to be a part of Christ's church, and relapses to the state and character of infidelity. This is articulus stantis et cadentis ecclesia--that article, with the admission or the denial of which the church either rises or falls "the main hinge on which the door of salvation turns " those who let go this, do not hold the foundation and though they may call themselves Christians, they give themselves the lie for the church is a sacred society, incorporated upon the certainty and assurance of this great truth and great it is, and has prevailed."
    Henry's first two points are on other views and not enough room to place them here, but they can be found in his commentary.

    So the teaching of the Faith and the statement of Peter upon which Rock the would be built is not unfounded.
     
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    See my post #42
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Peter's statement was a statement of faith in the Rock.
     
  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    See my post #42.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Which supports what I am saying.
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    My understanding according to scripture is that the The Church (The Bride) is built by the Faith of Christ not the faith of Peter... Question would the church of Christ been set up without Peters confession?... He is the author and the finisher of our Faith... It is not what Peter said to Christ but what Christ said to Peter and what says to all of us, that is how the church is built... Brother Glen

    Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
     
  8. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully, post #42 just shows you even misunderstand and misapply commentary. You seriously need to take the admonition of my post to heart, as well as what others have pointed out to you in your errors.
     
  9. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Wait a minute, I thought the Rock was Peter himself who was the first Pope on which the authority of the Catholic church is built? (Just kidding LOL)
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We agree. That is the point I was making - its the Object of the confession just as it is Christ and not faith that saves (grace through faith).

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
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  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    That's funny Brother Joe but lets take a look at Peter... He tried to stand in the way of Jesus completing his mission... He fell asleep when Jesus went to pray... He cut off some ones ear and he denied he ever knew his Lord and Master Jesus... That is Peter!... The church of Christ is built on Jesus Christ crucifixion not on Peters confession!... Brother Glen
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is interesting that Paul bases it more on Christ's resurrection than his crucifixion whereas we focus more on the Crucifixion. Do you think he (Paul) is using the Resurrection as redemption completed or in full?

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    So true and I agree but Paul also says this and to me it balances both!... Because without the power of the resurrection he couldn't make this claim!... Brother Glen

    Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
     
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  14. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    I always thought the church was built upon the Person of Christ.
     
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  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Is not the Person of Christ according to the will of God?... Brother Glen

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
     
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  16. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Of course Christ would do the will of the Father, that is a given. But what I am suggesting is that the church was built upon His Person. I've not heard the church to be built on His crucifixion, or resurrection, (and He is the resurrection of course; John 11:25) but have always seen it as built upon the Person of Christ.
     
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I've always seen the Church as being built on the work of Christ (the Church being those redeemed). I'm not sure the difference is worth debating as we can't have one without the others.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I agree we are splitting hairs here and not benefitting any point of view... Brother Glen
     
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  19. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I just wondered what you were saying or if it was different than what I stated.
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    No I concur... I believe it is not just one person or persons point of view but a blending of it all... In the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ... Brother Glen
     
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