Does God love everyone?

Again, your conclusion is that "the 'certain unnamed man' represents the world, not the elect." But nothing in the text bears out that conclusion of yours.

No "field" is mentioned in the story. You are mixing things up.

The conclusion from the parable is that the Samaritan was being a true neighbor and lived out what Jesus was telling the expert in the law. We are to be neighbors to everyone without regard to their standing before the Lord.

 

Very true. I agree with them. It's quite biblical.

This "logic" is quite biblical. You are wrong.

I never said otherwise and neither has anyone from my camp.

I have posted that very same passage and others bearing out the same message scores of times on the BB. It's a wonderful truth.

No Calvinist objects. Your reasoning is flawed.

That has nothing to do with Rev. 5:9. Rev. 5:9 and sister passages which maintain that the Lord has His own children scattered around the world. Those are the ones for whom Christ was slain. He has purposed redemption for them and them alone.

You are preaching to the choir. I agree with you here.

That's vintage DHK-speak. You love to disparage the brethren.

AMEN! Christ laid down His life for His sheep (John 10) .It was for the Church of God that He bought with His own blood (Acts 20:28;Eph. 5:25).

 

DHK says;

What a load of bunk, no Calvinist disagrees with the premise of Rev. 5:9. I guess this is protocol behavior when one is losing, that is, make things up and bear false witness about the brothers. Go prove any Calvinist has denied the truth of that passage.

 

You are wrong in your assessment. If you were right we wouldn't have exchanges like this (a couple of pages ago).

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John 14:6 does not speak of any such "Covenant love" for the elect of God. That is nonsense.
In that verse Christ proclaims his deity and that he is the only way to heaven. No other person can claim to be the way, that is no other person or entity in the world or universe can be the way to heaven. Only Christ can be that Way.
ALL must come through him. NOT just the elect. The opportunity must be given to all. The fact that only the elect will respond in a positive way is a moot point. We don't know who they are.

We can't take the attitude of the church of William Carey:
"Young man, sit down; when God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid and mine."
--Why evangelize if God is going to save whom he will elect anyway??

What is God's will?
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
--All men won't be saved; but He died for all that all men could be saved. That is His will.
He died for the world that the world would be saved--His will.
He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance--His will.
His the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world--His will.

And just as the whole world will be deceived and will follow the antichrist in the endtimes, so in this age Christ has died for all the world, and offers all salvation. Today is the day of salvation. Someday it may be too late.

 

What does the verse say:
hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;...

Do you believe that Christ died for all the world: every tribe, every linguistic group no matter how small, every kind of people, every nation no matter how small. This is the definition of the world in John 3:16, the "world" that you redefine to mean the world of the elect. But it doesn't mean that does it?

 

Yes, out of --from among. It does not say He has redeemed everyone from all those groupings.

You are one confused guy. On the one hand you say Calvinists falsely accuse you and other non-Calvinists that you guys think everyone is saved. And of couse no Calvinist has ever made that charge of your theology.

Then, here, you think that Rev. 5:9, and by extension Rev. 7:9 and Rev. 14:4 speaks of redemption for every single person who has and shall live. Man are you a theological mess!

DHK: Christ has died for (in the place of- in the stead of- substitutionally) only His elect. The elect are also called His sheep, His Church, His possession, His beloved and many other designations in Holy Writ.

 

Your position has to be read into the Bible. It is eisigesis. The world means all the world. He died for all the world as it clearly says in 1John 2:2. There is no confusion there.
However not all will be saved; not all will call upon his name. We know that.
Just because he died for all does not mean all will be saved. Only those who freely accept his sacrifice of salvation will be saved. Whosoever will may come. That is his invitation and always has been.

Now looking retrospectively we can call those who have believed: sheep, possession, beloved, etc.
The Calvinist waits until the entire canon has been written (and it has), then puts himself at the beginning of eternity before Creation (which he can't) and assumes he can know and understand the decrees of God (an impossibility).
We live in the present not in the unseen past. We talk to people about their present condition and relation with Christ, not about eternity past and their possible election, or whether or not they might be a sheep or a goat. We are not privy to that knowledge. We assume that person has the free will to choose or reject Christ when the gospel is presented. If they reject Christ they will go to hell.

On that basis does a person enter heaven or hell--whether or not he trusts or rejects Christ.

 

The only ones that come to Jesus are the ones given to Jesus by the Father. The Father draws them and them alone --no one else (John 6:44)
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What "must be given" --salvation?No, God doesn't work the DHK way. You don't get to set up rules that God must abide by. The Lord hides his saving truths from some. He hardens them. But He sees fit to open the hearts and spiritual eyes of His own.

That famous "story" is disputed by the son of John Ryland. And Senior was a godly man. He has been unfairly maligned over the years.

His purposes will not be thwarted by mere man. It is His will to save His elect. Condemnation hangs over the heads of those who are not His elect.

I've already addressed that a thousand times with you in the last decade.

He is not willing that any of His own perish. Peter's epistle is addressed to believers. in Romans 11:25 it says:""Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." That means until all of those whom God has determined to save from among the Gentiles are indeed saved.

Christ is not the propitiation for the non-elect. You keep getting in theological quagmires because you have neglected to distinguish the meaning, based on context, of the wording "whole world." It means here in 1 John 2:2 --not only from among the Jews --but salvation is granted to Gentiles too. They are also among the number of the scatted children of God. In John 11, at the end of verse 51 and all of verse 52 it states:"Jesus would died for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."

John wrote the above and its direct corollary in 1 John 2:2. You can't afford to ignore the weight and relevance of the passages in John 11 if you seek to determine the meaning of 1 John 2:2.

I want you to look at 1 John 5:19 :"We know that we are the children of God and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

So DHK, there is a clear distinction here between believers and the whole world. It looks as though the "whole world" means everybody but believers.

Have you ever wondered, based on your belief that God is the propitiation for everyone -why John didn't write something brief and to-the-point? I mean he could have said :"He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world."

But no, John didn't express himself that way. He wanted to establish that the propitiation of Christ as the propitiator was not only for the Jews but Gentiles now as well. Not only for us (Jews) but for Gentiles = everyone else = the whole world

 

It's too bad that you ignore or minimize whole swaths of Scripture. eternity past is spoken of in the Bible. Open your eyes.

In Matthew 25:34 :"...the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."
In Ephesians 1:4 : "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world."
2 Thessalonians 2:13 :"...from the beginning God chose you to be saved..."
2 Timothy 1:9 :"...This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."
1 Peter 1:20 :"He was chosen before the foundation of the world..."

In a number of passages it speaks of you call your "unseen past" ---to the rest of us, the Scripture is very visible.
Philippians 4:3 :"...whose names are in the book of life."
Hebrews 12:23 :"to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven."
Rev. 13:8 : "...all whose names have not been written in the book of life..."
Rev. 17:8 : "...The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world."
Rev. 20:15 : "If anyone's name was not found written in book of life..."
Rev. 21:27 : "...those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Why do you toss in this nonsense DHK? No one of us claims to have inside knowledge regarding the eternal status of everyone. You spend so much time leveling false charges. Drop your bad habit.

Your assumption is dead wrong. The will is in bondage to sin. It is not free. The Lord has to make us willing. He changes our hearts.

 

I think you read too much into these verses.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
--This speaks of his death: he will draw all men to himself.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
--This teaches that salvation is all of God. He is the author of salvation and he will keep our salvation.
Those that come to Christ are those that the Father gives because they are the ones that have freely trusted in Him. God knew about it aforetime. Look at the context:

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
--Just four verses earlier Jesus speaks of those who freely believe on him have eternal life. Why would he contradict himself in the next few verses? He doesn't.

Jn.6:44 simply means that no one can believe on him without divine help. We all believe that. But the Calvinist takes it a step farther as if God forces him to believe, that is "Irresistible Grace," which the Bible doesn't teach.

Salvation is a gift. That is what the Bible says; not what I say.
Check Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23. Salvation is a gift. It must be accepted.
Consistently I see Calvinists reject sola fide. Perhaps you can explain that for me. (sincerely)
The Calvinistic notion that God is deliberately cruel to some while deliberately loving to others is false. It was never taught before Augustine. Going along with the other four items of TULIP it forms one of the pillars of Calvinism. But even the Bible speaks out harshly and directly against this:

I'll quote from the ESV because the KJV uses language too harsh for you to digest.

(ESV) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Peter calls it a destructive heresy. You call it "Limited Atonement." False teachers deny the Master who bought them." They (unsaved) deny that they were ever purchased by Christ, that is, that they were ever part of the elect in the first place. Christ didn't die for them they say. Peter calls that a destructive heresy, and as you know, in the KJV, "a damnable heresy."
Why? Christ died for all. He died for the false teachers, the false prophets, and the believers.

Maybe; maybe not. Even if what you say is true, the remarks made or supposedly made reflect the "hyper-Calvinistic" climate of that day. They reflect the opposition that Carey faced, and why he felt it was so necessary to write: his groundbreaking missionary manifesto, An Enquiry into the Obligations of Christians to use Means for the Conversion of the Heathens. (Wikepedia)

What kind of answer is that?
It is the Holy Spirit that wrote the Word. He is the one that wrote:
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
--His will is that all men be saved. We know they won't because of the hardness of their hearts.
But your answer has God contradicting God.

So you have; and the Scripture hasn't changed its meaning has it?

Peter talks about many things (even limited atonement). There is no need to read into the verse those things which are not there. It is called eisigesis.

I am not the one confused here. It is a simple statement to be taken at face value, and you are unwilling to do that.
He is a propitiation for our sins, but not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.
The whole world means just that, the whole world.

He wasn't writing his gospel and his first epistle at the exact same time. You are the one ignoring context here.

I do believe the whole world lies in the hand of the wicked one. Satan is the god of this world, this entire world. He reigns and rules over it. There will come a time when Christ will come again and rule over it, in the Millennial Kingdom, but it is evident that Christ is not ruling this world now. You prove my point. Satan rules this entire world now. The kingdoms of this world belong to Satan, just as Satan offered them to Christ in Matthew four. They were his to offer Christ. He is the god of this world. (2Cor.4:4).

He did. IJn.2:2

He doesn't even mention the Jews in his first epistle. You are confused. And we are not Jews.

 

Man, talk about a delayed response.

 

J.D.! Man, how are ya'? It has been so long. You have been away from all the BB wars. I hope you can come and visit more often. Just put your armour on.

 

Hello J.D.! It's great to hear from you. Hope all has been well with you.

 

You are daft. I basically quoted John 6:44 --and yet you say I have read into Scripture.

Only adult males? ;-) You know the word "men" isn't in the original. But it could mean "all my friends."

Please tell me how his death drew all the residents of Hell to Himself.

Weak, DHK,weak. Of course salvation is all of God. Only those of the Father's choosing are given to Jesus. The father draws them and gives them to Jesus. Those are the only ones who come.

Oh, he got the memo did he? God does not merely know about it beforehand. He determines,decrees and sovereignly wills that the ones He has chosen --and only those --will come. God knows them intimately. He doesn't know the ones who don't come. Remember :"I never knew you." He doesn't prevent anyone from coming.

Just an assist? You do most of the heavy lifting, but you give God a bit of credit. No, I will believe the Bible.

God doesn't "force.' He draws with loving kindness. He turns hearts of stone to flesh. That's effectual calling.

What a hoot. For more than a decade you have denied that faith is a gift in no uncertain terms. And those like me who have called you on it you have derided constantly. Grace and faith are indeed God's gifts to His chosen ones.

It is given. There is no "It must be accepted" jazz.

You have consistently made that lie.

Why lie DHK? Is that all you have in your toolbox? God doesn't keep people out of the Kingdom of Heaven by force. They freely choose to suppress the truth. They are angry with God. They are dead in their sin.

Well, this part is true. God has with deliberate intent chosen to love His own.

I don't feel like dredging around the Church Fathers for this. However, it was taught by Jesus, John Peter and Paul.

 

Hey my fellow Calvinist(or DoG) Brethern....which of you is guilty of this charge? Don't be shy, don't be coy, but let us see a show of hands.

I will not be raising my.

 

No matter how many times you are corrected you continue to repeat your bogus business. 2 Peter 2:1 is not dealing soteriology. It is not discussing Particular dredemption or so-called unlimited atonement.

You are really mucking things up DHK. You really need to study the Bible before you type nonsense on a public Christian forum. The characteristis of these false teachers are listed in verses 2-22 of 2 Peter 2. And in a parallel text Jude 4-16. Do you honestly think Calvinists possess those repugnant qualities? That itself is revulsive of you DHK.

DHK, the context of 2 Peter 2:1 has nothing to do with salvation. It is not specifically about Christ --but God the Father. It is referencing His owership of everyone as the Sovereign Master of His creation. It's speaking of the power that Masters have over their servants.

Look at Deut. 32:6b : "Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?"

God has ownership and authority over His subjects.He is the Sovereign Lord mentioned in Luke 2:29; Acts 4:24 and Rev.6:10.

You would insist that He also died for Esau, Judas, the citizens of Sodom, Gomorrah and all the people who died in the Great Flood. Complete nonsense.

You just don't L-I-S-T-E-N. You don't interact with what I have said. You use no reasoning. You just repeat your traditionalist mantra.

Is there a point somewhere in your statement?

John is the author of both passages --there is a direct relationship between both portions. He uses the same kind of language.

Man, if you, in a discussion of John 6 want to bring in 12:32 --why is it wrong to tie 1 John 2:2 with John 11:51-52?

 

Look at this scenario. I tried to start writing a book and then three broken ribs happened in the first of October, and I haven't started writing it again since then. But here is what I wrote...it is from memory so it is not the exact same word-for-word writing from in October.

You and your family are on a boat and one of your girls is swimming and has a cramp. They begin to struggle, so one of your sons goes to save his sibling, and when they get there, they begin swatting them away. Another son goes to rescue her and she swats them away. You throw a life preserver and she refuses to use it, and after all is said and done, she drowns. This is the scenario that the non-Calvinists use as they use their free will to either accept the offer of salvation or reject it and drown. But this scenario is all wrong.

In reality, that girl wasn't drowning, but drowned. She was dead and floating face down on top of the water. There is no way she can respond to the life preserver being thrown at her. What needs to happen is her brother needs to get her, put her on the boat and start CPR. In steps Christ as it is He who gives us life to respond. He gives us a new heart and Spirit(Ez. 11:19 & 36:26).

It's like someone having surgery and flat-lining on the operating table. They are dead and can not of their ownselves respond to any external stimuli. In steps Christ to infuse life into the dead in transgressions and sins sinner and they, in turn, respond accordingly.

 

What the Bible says about 'faith alone':

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Jas 2

 

No, that's what a single verse you proof text says about what you believe Sola Fide dismisses, yet it does not, nor does the doctrine mitigate the necessity of works in true conversion. 2 Timothy 2:15.