Featured Do Christians Have an Inner Struggle with Sin or the Flesh?

Precisely. You hit the nail on the head. To varying degrees EVERY Christian has experienced the roller coaster described in Ro 7. That's WHY the law was given to begin with, to show the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and every Christian must know that, Jew or Gentile, in order to even begin to appreciate the enormity of what Christ has done for us.

 

I whole heartedly agree... And the greater you are brought to your forgiveness the greater will be your appreciation of the enormity of the forgiveness you've been delivered from!... I know the Christian walk is a warfare... If it wasn't why are we told to put on... THE WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD?... Like it or not once you claim Christ, you my brother or sister have been drafted... You're in the Lords Army!... Brother Glen

 

Hi again dear brother,

If indwelling sin can be completely mortified in this lie why do we always sin until we die, as the scripture saith, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:8-9). Perhaps more importantly why does it say of of our bodies, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21)? Why do we even need to wait have our bodies to be "adopted" if our physical bodies are already "saints" and we already children of God and one does not ever legally adopt one who is already by descendant already a child? The reason is because there are two men, the "inward man" that is already a "child of God" or "saint" if you will born from above, but the outward man, our sinful flesh for which Christ died thouh having forgiven us all our sins, sin remains it, therefore our needs to be adopted to be :changed" to be like unto His sinless body is at the resurrection. Here is another verse on the adoption of our bodies, "even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23) It is clear from this verse the adoption has # 1 not taken place # 2 is done for the "redemption of our body". What is our body needing to be redeemed from if it is not "sin" in it and why does the other verse I cited refer to them as "our vile" body" if they are not sinless bodies? The reason is clear, because though our inward man born again does not sin, our bodies are still corrupted by the sin it inherited from our physical father Adam, this is what is meant here where Jesus is talking about being born again by the Spirit saying " 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63). The flesh profited "nothing" at regeneration in that it is still infected by sin therefore it needs to be adopted

That we are both a "sinner and a saint" is biblical and is most clearly seen here, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8), but a few chapters later John seems to contradict himself by saying, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18). These seemingly contradictory verses can only be reconciled when one sees the first one that says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" is talking of our fleshly bodies, while the other verse that says "whosoever is born of God sinneth not" is talking about the "new man" Christ's Spirit in us our "new creation" we receive when we during the experience of the 2nd birth. This "new man", unlike our bodies the flesh, does not sin, cannot sin and is therefore a saint. If you don't adhere to this interpretation of these two verses, please tell me how you reconcile them brother WalkintheSpirit?

 

Romans 7 is indisputably speaking of a born again child of God not a devout unsaved Jew because verse Romans 7:22 says, "22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" and Romans 7:25 says, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God", but before one becomes born again we only have the carnal mind that Paul of in the same book, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7), therefore if the person described in Romans 7 "delights in the law of God" and with his mind and "serves the law of God" he must be saved because the unsaved man only possesses the "carnal mind" which Paul says "is (at) enmity against God" and "is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7), therefore either Romans contradicts itself in chapters 7 and 8, but we know the Bible does not do this, or the correct answer is Romans 7 is talking of a believer who has an "inward man" born again who thus has the "mind of Christ", whereby he can "serve the law of God", but also has still the "outward man" with the "carnal mind of his physical body that is inherited from our fleshly father Adam and thus there is spiritual warfare within every child of God. If one cannot feel this warfare in them, they give evidence they have not been born again.

 

Brother Joe... Are we a sinner in a saints body or a saint in a sinners body?... Brother Glen

 

Tell me this do you believe we inherit from our physical father Adam a nature called the "inward man" that "delight(s) in the law of God" (Romans7:22), if so, what scripture and verse do you get that from to prove that is what Romans 7:22 is referring to" You misunderstand, the "indward man" is not created until one becomes born again.

If the Spirit always wins the conflict in a believer between his flesh and his spirit why does he still sin? When he sins has the Sprit still won out over the flesh in your book? Of course it hasn't, thus your statement is false as proven by the fact we all sin.

 

Hi Brother Glen

We are saints in a sinners body that one day will receive the promised "adoption" of the body when it will be changed to be sinless like Christ's, thus will be the culmination of our salvation, the merger of our sinless spirits that have been born again and then will also possesses a sinless body that has been adopted and changed at the resurrection. We are child of God in our spirits with Him living in us, but are bodies on the other hand are not (both experience and scripture prove this to be true). If the bodies were already "children of God" by means of the 2nd birth, then there would be no need for a subsequent adoption because who adopts those that are already natural born children? That is unheard of and a ridiculous notion. Unfortunately many adhere to the falser doctrine that the Adamic body is changed after becoming born again (including I believe a coupe posters on this thread that prove that)!

 

I agree and if one who claims to be a believer and never can say with agreement to what Paul wrote after he was saved that "15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." he gives evidence he is not a child of God. What many don't realize is that experiencing this internal conflict is evidence one is a child of God, not the opposite, because an unregenerate can generally care less if they are sinning and consider themselves "good people", thereby not seeing a need for a Savior.

 

Brother Glen,

Very good posts by all- Internet theologian, KyRed, and you! This ware is what causes us to see our need for consistent need our need for Him (especially after becoming born again) and run to the cross for constant mercy and also appreciate the magnitude of what He has done for us. As Paul said, “16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16). In our struggle with sin and when we fall is our “time of need” to come “boldly” to Him.

 

Hi again dear brother,
If indwelling sin can be completely mortified in this lie why do we always sin until we die, as the scripture saith, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:8-9). Perhaps more importantly why does it say of of our bodies, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21)? Why do we even need to wait have our bodies to be "adopted" if our physical bodies are already "saints" and we already children of God and one does not ever legally adopt one who is already by descendant already a child? The reason is because there are two men, the "inward man" that is already a "child of God" or "saint" if you will born from above, but the outward man, our sinful flesh for which Christ died thouh having forgiven us all our sins, sin remains it, therefore our needs to be adopted to be :changed" to be like unto His sinless body is at the resurrection. Here is another verse on the adoption of our bodies, "even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23) It is clear from this verse the adoption has # 1 not taken place # 2 is done for the "redemption of our body". What is our body needing to be redeemed from if it is not "sin" in it and why does the other verse I cited refer to them as "our vile" body" if they are not sinless bodies? The reason is clear, because though our inward man born again does not sin, our bodies are still corrupted by the sin it inherited from our physical father Adam, this is what is meant here where Jesus is talking about being born again by the Spirit saying " 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63). The flesh profited "nothing" at regeneration in that it is still infected by sin therefore it needs to be adopted

That we are both a "sinner and a saint" is biblical and is most clearly seen here, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8), but a few chapters later John seems to contradict himself by saying, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18). These seemingly contradictory verses can only be reconciled when one sees the first one that says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" is talking of our fleshly bodies, while the other verse that says "whosoever is born of God sinneth not" is talking about the "new man" Christ's Spirit in us our "new creation" we receive when we during the experience of the 2nd birth. This "new man", unlike our bodies the flesh, does not sin, cannot sin and is therefore a saint. If you don't adhere to this interpretation of these two verses, please tell me how you reconcile them brother WalkintheSpirit?

 

I have never met a devout Jew who did not passionately love God and the Scriptures and thus strive to keep the Law. Most certainly Paul loved God and the Scriptures, but he regarded the Law as the power of sin (1 Cor.15:56) and he most certainly knew the peril inherent in attempting to keep it!

Rom 7:25 is proof that the man in Rom. 7:14-25 (with the exception of the interjection found in 7:25a—Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!) is an unregenerate Jew rather than a Christian. Had the passage been written much later in history and we were to ignore the context, the passage could be interpreted as referring to an unregenerate Jehovah’s Witness or any other individual who believes that keeping the Law is necessary for salvation but finds himself unable to come even close to doing so.

Now, let’s look at John 8:34 in context,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34. Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

In this passage, Jesus is distinguishing between the people who know the truth, and those who do not—and He promises to those who chose to believe the truth that they shall be made free from sin. Most certainly, the man is Rom. 7:14-25 is not a man who knows the truth. He may “know” the Scriptures from beginning to end, but he does not know the truth that separates an unregenerate Jew from a Christian—and therefore is still in the state of having been “sold into bondage to sin” (Rom. 7:15).

This is a very unfortunate quote for it reveals, as do many other of his quotes in other places, Gill’s lack of knowledge of Greek literature and the ancient Hellenistic culture in which Greek writers frequently employed the literary device known as prosopopoeia or “speech in character.” Although the linguist and Bible scholar Adam Clarke also lacked a good formal education, he was at least widely read and aware that Paul was likely using this literary device. Thus Clarke wrote on Romans 7:14,

It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that “the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state.” This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified, and had not as yet heard those blessed words: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, Act_9:17.​

What devout Jew, Mormon, or Jehovah’s Witness does not in his unregenerate state concern himself with “struggling with sin, or against sin in an effort to please God”? The hyperbolic statements in Rom. 3:10-18 were never intended to be precisely correct historically or theologically (and indeed, they are not!), but rather they were intended to provide a foundation for vv. 19-20,

Rom. 3:19. Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20. because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

 

I most certainly have not experienced striving to keep the Law but failing to do so as is described in Rom. 7:14-25—and NO Christian should EVER experience the wretchedness described by the man in Rom. 7:14-25. Furthermore, Rom. 7:14-25 follows on the heels of Rom. 7:4,

4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. (NASB, 1995)

Does a man who has died to the Law to strive to keep it?

 

What does any of this have to do with the scenario described in Rom.7:14-25, a TOTALLY DIFFERENT scenario than the one that you are describing? Of course Christians live in a battle zone, but they have the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to help them through it. The man in Rom.7:14-25 has neither of these—he has instead the Old Testament Law—and the Old Testament Law cannot help him because the Law is the power of sin! (1 Cor. 15:56). That is precisely Paul’s point! Even the most devout Jew needs to be saved by grace though faith.

In his epistle to the Philippians, Paul writes of his Jewish experience before his conversion,

Phil. 3:6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Are we to believe that upon his conversion, Paul became a wretched man (Rom. 7:24) having been sold into bondage to sin (Rom. 7:14?

 

Yes...when paul became saved he realized he had failed to be a law keeper while he was in the flesh, so he was enabled by God to follow after holiness without which no man will see the Lord.

 

This is a picture of any blood bought Christian that struggles with sin. Our flesh still as desires that need to be squelched by the Spirit of God.

 

Delighting in the Law of God is NOT something that Christians do; it is something that Jews do. The man described in Romans 7:14-25 is striving with every ounce of his being to keep the Old Testament Law but miserably failing to do so because he has been “sold into bondage to sin” (v. 14). The “inner man” who is the man apart from his outer man. In Rom. 7:22, the inner man is the part of a Jew apart from his outer man. In 2 Cor. 4:16 and Eph. 3:16, the inner man is the part of a Christian apart from his outer man. Today, we would speak of “the essence of a man” versus the outward behavior of the man. The essence of the man in Romans 7:14-25 is that of a devout Jew who, like any other devout Jew, joyfully concurs with the Law of God, but without the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, he is unable to keep the Law, making him feel wretched (v.24). Indeed, he has been “sold into bondage to sin” (v. 14), and deliverance from that bondage can come only though faith in Christ. Will that deliverance be complete while he is still alive and has his flesh to contend with? No. Like all other believers “having the first fruits of the Spirit,” he will be waiting eagerly for his adoption as a son, the redemption of his body (Rom. 8:23).

 

No, it is a picture of a wretched man (v. 24) who desperately needs to be purchased by the blood of Christ because he has been sold into bondage to sin (v. 14).

 

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.(flesh here) For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

This was Paul describing his life. The flesh is still fallen and has not been delivered from the clutches of sin, yet the spirit within the saved has. Until the flesh dies a physical death and is resurrected by God Himself, man is subject to, and does sin.

Your hermeneutics are off on this passage, Monsieur, in my opinion.

 

This is so categorically false, it is scary, mon frère. You have not one properly exegeted bible verse to support such a notion. The bible easily refutes your ideology here.

Let's delve into God's holy writ and see what He had men inspired by His Spirit write...

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”Jeremiah 31:31-34]

The Hebrew writer expressed the same thought in chapters 8 and 10, and Paul said he delighted in the Laws of God after the inward man in Romans 7.

There is nothing more joyous for a Christian to do than obey the Laws of God, though many times, we fall woefully short.

 

It seems pretty certain to me that not everyone here is using the terms "flesh" and "spirit" in the same manner. With the addition of words like inner and outer, and nature, I think the understanding of flesh and spirit has become convoluted.

In my understanding the flesh, and outer man, are the physical body. It's what was procreated from our parents. And as brotherjoseph has plainly stated, it is not regenerated - and won't be until the resurrection. Whether a man is born again or not, his physical body would be called the flesh or the outer man. This physical body is sin-wrecked and will die. But in the resurrection it will be raised imperishable, incorruptible, in power...

The spirit, and inner man, are the non-physical part of a man which come from God. Whether a man is born again or not, his spirit would be called the inner man. It seems brotherjoseph and I would disagree on that point, but we would agree that as it concerns the regenerated man, this is that aspect of him that is not able to sin.

See Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Zechariah 12:1

Most seem to be using spirit and flesh to designate two inner men living inside one body. A supposed regenerated nature and sinful nature, both residing on the inside.