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Not a gross sin. Just a misapplication of the word, in my opinion. Just like you see my belief(s).

It is here in some extent now. It will be poured out full-throttle on the day of judgment.

We are in the time of tribulation now. Look at all the chaos in the world now. It will only get worse and not better, from here until the day Jesus returns.

I agree with , but with one caveat. His love is for His sheep. That was who Jesus said He was the Shepherd of. It was for them He laid His life down freely for. It was for them He arose for. It was for them He ascended to the Father for. It is for them He intercedes for. It is for them He shall return for. These that He did and is doing for, are those the Father chose from the creation of the world, and gave to the Son to redeem.

Yes. He hates the wicked. He is angry with the wicked every day.

He foreknew in that He ordained/decreed all that comes to pass. He knew those who would receive them because He chose them from the creation of the world. He knew them that would believe because He would finish the work in them that He starts. See Philippians 1:6.

Agree.

His hatred is a holy hatred. Ppl don't know how much He detests sin. He hates it so much that when the appointed time comes, He will finally do away with sin and cast them into hell.

Remember, God is not like us. Yes, we're made in His likeness(that like is marred by Adam's transgression...see Genesis 5:3 and see whose image we bear now), but we're nothing like Him. When He kills, it is always a righteous act. When a human kills, a lot of times it's murder. There are also times of self-defense, which I do not consider sin. We are commanded to love everybody, but God loves those He chose. That is where is love is focused.

Yes and I agree.

Agree.

Yes. Agree.

Exactly. That is what I was hoping to address.

Ppl use this verse to support universal atonement. But it just does not jive with other verses that show His will to save His sheep, His ppl from their sins. Yes, God gets not joy in the death of the wicked. But in His holiness, He has to punish sins that the unrepentant died in. If He did not have a will that any die lost, He would have had Jesus die for all and save all. Yet if I understand the bible correctly, I believe many more will die lost than saved.

 

Sorry, thread-jack...but @ sovereignGrace

Your sig says “The doctrine of the carnal Christian has destroyed more lives and sent more people to hell than you can imagine!"

How does this square up with the fact that your god has elected those to heaven already? How could a doctrine possibly send people to hell if god wasn't going to have them go to heaven anyway??????

And, if you don't mind, i shall add my own comment to it...that is probably one of the most asinine statements i've ever heard in my life.

 

It's more like a seat-belt to the truth, Icon.

People who ask that question usually get the whole story, haha. For some background, I own a 2,000sf woodworking shop and I’ve built custom cabinets most my life but got tired of working 12 hour days, 7 days a week like I was Superman or something. I even built my own 5,400sf home and did these things entirely by myself but was facing getting older and getting plain old worn out while life simply passed me by and I began praying for a change of jobs and life. An average job seemed much more manageable. I soon ran into a problem though, being a high school dropout I found I wasn’t qualified outside of woodworking for much more than milking cows so I considered getting qualified and asked myself the important question of what else I would like to do. Then I came across Physical Therapy and it seemed a perfect fit for me. So next, I went by the college and inquired about it and they had me take tests to see if I could qualify for the program. I did well and the counselor said she could sign me up and rather remarkably 3 weeks later I found myself sitting in college classes. - If someone had suggested a couple of months before that I should go to college at my age, lack of experience with academics and other factors I doubt I would have taken it serious, yet there I was.


4 years later I had earned a college degree in Physical Therapy Applied Science, although, along the way I often wondered what the heck I was doing throwing away my life’s skills as a master craftsman woodworker for a limiting lessor paying job but decided to finish all the hard work I’d started as it seemed my only opportunity for change.


After getting my license and while looking for a job I kept thinking about that I might not like to be limited to work under an employer for the first time in 25 years and also kept thinking about coming across physical therapy devices that not only could I build but build better quality and less expensive so I started checking into what was out there. Suddenly the thought of putting my two skills (woodworking and physical therapy) together made perfect sense. I had lots of ideas rushing into my head for new types of devices along with the ability to build whatever I could envision and suddenly, like a kick in the forehead, I realized I would have never thought to go to college for 4 years to change my woodworking business’ direction BUT perhaps that was God’s answer to my prayer for change all along.


In the meantime, I got a call for a physical therapy job but told them I had new plans but they asked me if I could just fill in for a couple weeks. I agreed and found it was a job where I have a gym full of equipment all to myself and work with mostly breast cancer patients to help them gain back much needed range of motion and strength. It also turned out I was quite good at these things and am very much appreciated for it, so I found it quite rewarding. So, for almost two years now I have been working there but with careful planning in addition to that job I have completely rebuilt and retooled my shop for a fresh new atmosphere toward producing physical therapy devices.


I’m currently starting to build up inventory and have many common items yet to build which I am improving on in quality as well as several new inventions to start developing that I believe to have great potential.


As for the hours, well I find I am basically working two jobs now but hope to begin making sales soon and begin focusing solely on the business and along the way have promised myself to hire and train some helpers so I won’t be doing all the work by myself this time around. So yes, very busy getting everything set up but it is an exciting change, looks to pay well and as the business owner lets me set the pace in life that I am more comfortable with – eventually.

 

You didn't even address what I said.

How can a doctrine send someone to hell if God didn't ordain them to heaven anyway?

 

Man, stretch...quit reachin'

The statement is bogus, just admit it. Don't let pride delude you.

 

This stuff goes way back:

Hanserd Knollys, The World to Come (1681)

"Secondly, Open your hearts to Christ, when he knocks at the Door of your Souls, and calls you to come to him, to receive him, and let him come into your hearts, and dwell in your hearts by his holy Spirit, and sanctifying Grace, Rev. 3.20. Behold I stand at the Door and knock, if any man hear my voice, and will open the Door, . . I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If the Sinner be willing to open the door of his heart, Christ will come in by his holy Spirit, and HE will communicate of his Grace to his Soul."


John Bunyan, The Doctrine of the Law and Grace Unfolded (1685)

"Object[ion]: But, I am afraid the day of Grace is past, and if it should be so, what should I do then?
Answ[er]: . . . .First, doth the Lord knock still at the door of thy Heart by his Word and Spirit? If so, then the day of Grace is not past with thy Soul; for where he doth so knock, there he doth also proffer, and promise to come in and Sup, (that is, to Communicate of his things unto them) which he would not do, was the day of Grace past with the Soul, Rev. 3. 20."


Thomas Killcop, The Pathway to Justification (1660)

"Obj: There is a passive receiving of Christ without a hand, when God forceth open mans spirit, and powreth in his Son in despite of the receiver.
Answ. This contradicts Christ, who saith, Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will open to me, I will come into him and sup with him, and he with me, Rev. 3.20."


Benjamin Keach, The Glory of God's Rich Grace Displayed (1694)

"O know you, Sinners, this Day, that Jesus Christ, this glorious King, and Prince of the Kings of the Earth, this mighty Saviour is come to your Doors: Behold, I stand at the Door and knock: Rev. 3.20. Will you not open the Door, nor cry to him to help you to open to him, to enable you to believe in him? What do you say, shall the Son of God stand at your Doors, and you not so much as ask, Who is there? Who is at my Door? Shall Christ be kept out of your Hearts, and stand at your Doors, whilst Sin commands the chiefest Room, and has absolute Power over you, and rules in you? How will you be able to look this Blessed Saviour in the Face another Day?"


Charles Spurgeon, "Knock" (1883)

"There stands the Ever-Blessed, knocking at the door of the soul, but the hinges are rusted, the door, itself, is fast bolted and wild briars and all kinds of creeping plants running up the door prove that it has been along time since it was moved. You know what it all means—how continuance in sin makes it harder to yield to the knock of Christ and how evil habits creeping up, one after another, hold the soul so fast that it cannot open to the sacred knocking. Jesus has been knocking at some of your hearts ever since you were children—and still He knocks. I hear His blessed hand upon the door at this moment! Do you not hear it? Will you not open?"

 

I'm not arguing about the Gospel doing a mighty work of God's grace to purify a soul...eternally and in the here and now...I'm talking about the inconsistent approach to God's sovereignty...either they were elected to be wed to Christ or they weren't, a "doctrine referring to carnal Christianity" won't send anyone to hell...they were already going there because of sin, unrighteousness and God's Justice.

 

I thought I did. But maybe not?

You appear to have a false view of predestination. God made man upright, but when Adam fell, his whole posterity fell with him, including you and I. If God had not chosen a ppl out of that fallen race to give to the Son to redeem, all would be justly condemned to hell. So, God did not predestine anyone to hell. He did, however, predestinate a multitude of unworthy sinners to be conformed to the image of His Son.

That is predestination. It has to do with His choosing a ppl to give to His Son. The rest were left in their fallen state.

 

I understand it correctly, which is why I said your Paul washer quote doesn't make any sense in light of Calvinism

 

Jesus used some natural examples to show them that were saved. He used the good and corrupt trees. He also used the sweet and bitter water coming forth from a spring.

If ppl can not see a difference in a professed believer from those who are still lost, something's amiss. We are a peculiar ppl. We are to look, act, and live differently than those who are lost.

 

Howso?

 

I'm agreeing with you on this.

I am disagreeing with the ideology that, if Calvinism is true, a doctrine will send anyone to hell (particularly the carnal christian doctrine). A person was destined for hell prior to hearing about any doctrine (in regard to Calvinism).

 

Good. Any agreement is always good.

We are not speaking of destined but predestined. Those God chose to give to His Son were never destined to hell, not even predestined to hell. If Christ had not come in the flesh, all would be destined to hell. But from the creation of the world, God chose His ppl, and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

All His sheep were never destined to hell.