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Featured The Will of God in the Fall of Man

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rigz, Apr 22, 2016.

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  1. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Ok.
    Is the 'people' in your understanding here humanity or part of humanity?

    God wills that multitudes perish eternally?
    Supposing this is not a typo, what will would be this, 'decretive' or 'permissive'?
     
    #21 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  2. rigz

    rigz Member

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    I'm lost. He ALLOWS ALL to fall so He can save some?

    Interesting.
    So He is patient with the ALREADY saved not willing that any of the ALREADY saved be lost?:rolleyes:
     
    #22 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    If God does not save Joe, it is Joe's fault he failed to believe. God willingly(willed) left him to his own devices, yet Joe is personally responsible for his sins he willfully commited.
     
    #23 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    When Adam fell, his posterity fell, all of them, including you and I. He is under no obligation to save even one, yet He does via Christ's effacacious crosswork.


    No, they were not already saved. His sheep were once lost...sheep having gone astray. He is patient with His sheep, as He saves them as He wills.
     
    #24 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  5. rigz

    rigz Member

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    God is responsible for ALL He saves but ALL He does not save are responsible for their damnation?
     
    #25 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Yes. No one is forced to sin. No one is holding them back. They willingly refuse to come to the God they hate. They are His enemies.
     
    #26 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  7. rigz

    rigz Member

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    He is under no obligation to save the ones He permissively willed that they fall, right?
    But you said that 'us-ward' is the body of Christ
     
    #27 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Look at it this way. Joe hears the gospel and willingly rejects it. Now, why does he reject it? He hates God, is His enemy. No one is restraining him from believing. Only Joe is restraining Joe. Unless God gives him a new heart(willed), he will never believe. It takes God to give him a new heart to love Him, new eyes to see Him, new ears to hear the gospel. It is called divine quickening...regeneration.
     
    #28 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  9. rigz

    rigz Member

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    But they are sinning because of His permissive will (the Fall) remember?
    Maybe you should define PERMISSIVE will
     
    #29 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Correct. If He saved all or none, He is still just, holy, and good.

    Correct. He is not willing any of His sheep to perish. The body of Christ(church) is having sheep added to her daily.
     
    #30 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I only believe God has one will
     
    #31 Iconoclast, Apr 22, 2016
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    They are sinners because they are in the first Adam. Those in the last Adam(Christ) have a new nature, that, even though they sin, they detest themselves when they do. It is called repentance. Those in the first Adam do not repent when they sin. We were all in the first Adam by natural birth, but those who are in the last Adam(Christ) have a Spiritual birth thas has taken place.
    That which He allows(permits{permissive}) to come to pass.
     
    #32 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    So you do not believe in a permissive will of God? I ask only to seek clarification. Thanks and I love you my Brother.
     
    #33 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  14. rigz

    rigz Member

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    And man can defy this will, right?
     
    #34 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  15. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Is He the Cause of all that He allowS/permits to come to pass?
     
    #35 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not reading the link in detail, I agree that there is a sense whereby the existence of sin and evil are not outside of God's design and plan. What I would say to such claims is that perhaps sin and evil needs to be explored and defined (paticularly in relation to God) before making such claims doctrine.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk
     
    #36 JonC, Apr 22, 2016
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  17. rigz

    rigz Member

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    How about we define sin as simply rebelling against God. I'm not sure sin is anything more than this but I'm open to correction.

    Evil is a bit difficult to define. We may define it as the total sum of all unpleasant consequences of sinning or rebelling against God.

    In that case, did God DESIGN and PLAN man's Sin, and by extension Evil?
     
    #37 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Adam was the cause of sin in the world by willfully rebelling and eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Did God know this was, in fact, going to come to pass? Absolutely. Yet, He is not the Author of sin.
     
    #38 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  19. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Excuse me but are you not conflating foreknowledge and Cause?
    Nothing really catches God by surprise and nobody is disputing this.

    Where it gets hazy is when you ascribe man's rebellion to God's Will which you then classify as 'permissive'. Will in my mind means INTENTION and PURPOSE. So unless you are comfortable with God INTENDING and PURPOSING man to fall, I find the phrase 'permissive will' totally out of place and highly misleading.

    When I look at the subject verses, it is mighty clear that God's Will was 'do not eat'. Eating was rebellion/sinning/defying God's will. Do you dispute this?
     
    #39 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes......and everytime man defies God....it is called......SIN
     
    #40 Iconoclast, Apr 22, 2016
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