The Will of God in the Fall of Man

[rigz]

Not one of the people that Peter speaks of is going to be lost.
All of them are going to be saved......2 words for will are used here. The one means decreed destined and purposed to save them.

Ok.
Is the 'people' in your understanding here humanity or part of humanity?

God is very willing that multitudes perish.

God wills that multitudes perish eternally?
Supposing this is not a typo, what will would be this, 'decretive' or 'permissive'?

 

[rigz]

I view God permitting(permissive will) the fall of man so that He could(would) save a multitude of sinners via Christ's effacacious crosswork(decretive will).

I'm lost. He ALLOWS ALL to fall so He can save some?

Key word...us-ward...the church. God is not willing that any of His sheep(they comprise the church...the body of Christ) perish. That's the context of that verse.

Interesting.
So He is patient with the ALREADY saved not willing that any of the ALREADY saved be lost?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ok.
Is the 'people' in your understanding here humanity or part of humanity?


God wills that multitudes perish eternally?
Supposing this is not a typo, what will would be this, 'decretive' or 'permissive'?

If God does not save Joe, it is Joe's fault he failed to believe. God willingly(willed) left him to his own devices, yet Joe is personally responsible for his sins he willfully commited.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm lost. He ALLOWS ALL to fall so He can save some?

When Adam fell, his posterity fell, all of them, including you and I. He is under no obligation to save even one, yet He does via Christ's effacacious crosswork.

Interesting.
So He is patient with the ALREADY saved not willing that any of the ALREADY saved be lost?

No, they were not already saved. His sheep were once lost...sheep having gone astray. He is patient with His sheep, as He saves them as He wills.

 

[rigz]

If God does not save Joe, it is Joe's fault he failed to believe. God willingly(willed) left him to his own devices, yet Joe is personally responsible for his sins he willfully commited.

God is responsible for ALL He saves but ALL He does not save are responsible for their damnation?

 

[SovereignGrace]

God is responsible for ALL He saves but ALL He does not save are responsible for their damnation?

Yes. No one is forced to sin. No one is holding them back. They willingly refuse to come to the God they hate. They are His enemies.

 

[rigz]

When Adam fell, his posterity fell, all of them, including you and I. He is under no obligation to save even one, yet He does via Christ's effacacious crosswork.

He is under no obligation to save the ones He permissively willed that they fall, right?

No, they were not already saved. His sheep were once lost...sheep having gone astray. He is patient with His sheep, as He saves them as He wills.

But you said that 'us-ward' is the body of Christ

 

[SovereignGrace]

God is responsible for ALL He saves but ALL He does not save are responsible for their damnation?

Look at it this way. Joe hears the gospel and willingly rejects it. Now, why does he reject it? He hates God, is His enemy. No one is restraining him from believing. Only Joe is restraining Joe. Unless God gives him a new heart(willed), he will never believe. It takes God to give him a new heart to love Him, new eyes to see Him, new ears to hear the gospel. It is called divine quickening...regeneration.

 

[rigz]

Yes. No one is forced to sin. No one is holding them back. They willingly refuse to come to the God they hate. They are His enemies.

But they are sinning because of His permissive will (the Fall) remember?
Maybe you should define PERMISSIVE will

 

[SovereignGrace]

He is under no obligation to save the ones He permissively willed that they fall, right?

Correct. If He saved all or none, He is still just, holy, and good.

But you said that 'us-ward' is the body of Christ

Correct. He is not willing any of His sheep to perish. The body of Christ(church) is having sheep added to her daily.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok.
Is the 'people' in your understanding here humanity or part of humanity?


God wills that multitudes perish eternally?
Supposing this is not a typo, what will would be this, 'decretive' or 'permissive'?

I only believe God has one will

 

[SovereignGrace]

But they are sinning because of His permissive will (the Fall) remember?

They are sinners because they are in the first Adam. Those in the last Adam(Christ) have a new nature, that, even though they sin, they detest themselves when they do. It is called repentance. Those in the first Adam do not repent when they sin. We were all in the first Adam by natural birth, but those who are in the last Adam(Christ) have a Spiritual birth thas has taken place.

Maybe you should define PERMISSIVE will

That which He allows(permits{permissive}) to come to pass.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I only believe God has one will

So you do not believe in a permissive will of God? I ask only to seek clarification. Thanks and I love you my Brother.

 

[rigz]

I only believe God has one will

And man can defy this will, right?

 

[rigz]

That which He allows(permits{permissive}) to come to pass.

Is He the Cause of all that He allowS/permits to come to pass?

 

[JonC]

Thank you
John Calvin (quoted above) believed that God not only ' permitted' but also AUTHORED sin.

His erstwhile disciple MacArthur believes Sin is one of God's eternal decrees;
There’s a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. … But God’s role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends.
http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A189/is-god-responsible-for-evil

What would you say to such claims?

Not reading the link in detail, I agree that there is a sense whereby the existence of sin and evil are not outside of God's design and plan. What I would say to such claims is that perhaps sin and evil needs to be explored and defined (paticularly in relation to God) before making such claims doctrine.

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[rigz]

Not reading the link in detail, I agree that there is a sense whereby the existence of sin and evil are not outside of God's design and plan. What I would say to such claims is that perhaps sin and evil needs to be explored and defined (paticularly in relation to God) before making such claims doctrine.

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How about we define sin as simply rebelling against God. I'm not sure sin is anything more than this but I'm open to correction.

Evil is a bit difficult to define. We may define it as the total sum of all unpleasant consequences of sinning or rebelling against God.

In that case, did God DESIGN and PLAN man's Sin, and by extension Evil?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Is He the Cause of all that He allowS/permits to come to pass?

Adam was the cause of sin in the world by willfully rebelling and eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Did God know this was, in fact, going to come to pass? Absolutely. Yet, He is not the Author of sin.

 

[rigz]

Adam was the cause of sin in the world by willfully rebelling and eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Did God know this was, in fact, going to come to pass? Absolutely. Yet, He is not the Author of sin.

Excuse me but are you not conflating foreknowledge and Cause?
Nothing really catches God by surprise and nobody is disputing this.

Where it gets hazy is when you ascribe man's rebellion to God's Will which you then classify as 'permissive'. Will in my mind means INTENTION and PURPOSE. So unless you are comfortable with God INTENDING and PURPOSING man to fall, I find the phrase 'permissive will' totally out of place and highly misleading.

When I look at the subject verses, it is mighty clear that God's Will was 'do not eat'. Eating was rebellion/sinning/defying God's will. Do you dispute this?

 

[Iconoclast]

And man can defy this will, right?

Yes......and everytime man defies God....it is called......SIN