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With all due respect when you explicitly say "YOU SAY...." when I said no such thing or inferred no such thing, that is a false charge.

First, eternal security of the believer is not any process of logical conclusions but the clear and explicit teaching of scripture (Jn. 5:24; 6:37-39; 10:26-30; etc.). No logic involved just plain scripture.

Second, one either accepts it or rejects it.

Third, any doctrine that concludes in the rejection of it is rejecting the whole Biblical basis upon which that biblical doctrine stands.

Fourth, it is not biblical terms that define doctrine or truth but the definition of those biblical terms.

Therefore, all denominations which openly disavow the bibical doctrine of eternal security are openly disavowing the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works REGARDLESS of their logical explanations. We do not judge a denomination by their explanations but by the Bible's explanations. Therefore, it is not me "imposing" my "logical conclusions" on anyone - unless you too deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security and therefore charging me with false doctrine derived from simply my "logical conclusions" instead of fidelity to the Biblical teaching??????? Is that it?

I was trying to be charitable instead of calling you heretical in this regard.

When you said,

We are not talking about a “different baptism” because that “baptism” is not the water baptism of which you allude. It is being baptized in Christ, the work of which water baptism testifies.

There is no question as to what you believe or else you could not possibly make that underlined statement. So I know exactly what you are talking about and it is not baptism in water you are talking about and that statement is well documented and explained in many theology books.

Well, "y'all" is wrong and they are spot on!

 

Are you saying that tose wo deny ernal securit are not Chritians then, and that those ho practice infant baptism are not either?
Or that neither oftem are in a NT curch?

 

I am not saying they are lost, nor am I affirming they are saved. Each must be evaluated on an individual basis.

I am saying that no true NT church denies the doctrine of eternal security. Those who do deny it are not churches of Christ but unbaptized institutions of men which may or may not be "Christian.".

 

The Bible provides scriptural means to determine if one is Christian or not. Eternal Security which has over 150 verses against it, is not the make it or break it point.

1 John 4

1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

1 Corinthians 12
3Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.


John 13

34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


Even non-Christians make the call on who is Christian or not. What is Christian or not is a obvious thing its not a mystery.



1 john 3
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

We have Landmark Baptists, Charasmatic ones, Confessional reformed ones, new calvinist ones, SBC one et all, so who and how do we decide which are consiered t be real NTchurches?

My understanding on this tha t Bible states that a church is one that peaches the essetials ofthe Faith, and that we can freely disagree on issues such as spiritual gifts, second coming timing, baptism modes, as those are in house debates!

 

That issue thoug is NOT a "deal breaker"
Nor is baptism modes, timing of second coming
As we are still one in body of Christ!

 

Lol, judging by this thread there's a whole lot of disagreement within the denomination nowadays.

How many kinds of Baptists are there?

 

Drawing a line in regards to doctrinal issues has already been mentioned, but what about the line between personal and ecclesiastical fellowship?

We share an Easter morning service between 3 churches, SBC, AME Zion, and Presbyterian. I thoroughly enjoy sitting in the packed pews amongst others I wouldn't normally see on a Sunday morning. Granted I don't see where we have any doctrinal differences on Easter.

 

In Britain there are two movements which bring churches of different denominations together.
One is Churches Together. This movement draws churches of all types, incuding the Chuirch of Rome and the Quakers. There is no basis of faith other that a loose commitment to belief in the Deity of Christ. Just about every other church in my town is signed up to this, including the two other Baptist churches. All inter-church fellowship in the town is done through Churches Together. My church does not join because the is no basis of faith and no commitment to the Gospel.

There are also several Gospel Partnerships that have been organized throughout the country in recent years. Their aim is to draw Gospel churches together for mutual fellowship, training and cooperation. My church is affiliated to the Peninsular Gospel Partnership which covers the counties of Devon and Cornwall in South West England. We organize regular meetings, both for teaching and fellowship and offer part-time training for those wishing to lead Bible studies and Sunday schools or to preach.

All churches involved in the partnership have to sign up to its basis of faith, which is as follows:

1. God
There is one God, who exists eternally in three distinct but equal persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God is unchangeable in his holiness, justice, wisdom and love. He is the almighty Creator; Saviour and Judge who sustains and governs all things according to his sovereign will for his own glory.
2. The Bible
God has revealed himself in the Bible, which consists of the Old and New Testaments alone. Every word was inspired by God through human authors, so that the Bible as originally given is in its entirety the Word of God, without error and fully reliable in fact and doctrine. The Bible alone speaks with final authority and is always sufficient for all matters of belief and practice.
3. The Human Race
All men and women, being created in the image of God, have inherent and equal dignity and worth. Their greatest purpose is to obey, worship and love God. As a result of the fall of our first parents, every aspect of human nature has been corrupted and all men and women are without spiritual life, guilty sinners and hostile to God. Every person is therefore under the just condemnation of God and needs to be born again, forgiven and reconciled to God in order to know and please him.
4. The Lord Jesus Christ
The Lord Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, and lived a sinless life in obedience to the Father. He taught with authority and all his words are true. On the cross he died in the place of sinners, bearing God’s punishment for their sin, redeeming them by his blood. He rose from the dead and in his resurrection body ascended into heaven where he is exalted as Lord of all. He intercedes for his people in the presence of the Father.
5. Salvation
Salvation is entirely a work of God’s grace and cannot be earned or deserved. It has been accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ and is offered to all in the gospel. God in his love forgives sinners whom he calls, granting them repentance and faith. All who believe in Christ are justified by faith alone, adopted into the family of God and receive eternal life.
6. The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit has been sent from heaven to glorify Christ and to apply his work of salvation. He convicts sinners, imparts spiritual life and gives a true understanding of the Scriptures. He indwells all believers, brings assurance of salvation and produces increasing likeness to Christ. He builds up the Church and empowers its members for worship, service and mission.
7. The Church
The universal Church is the body of which Christ is the head and to which all who are saved belong. It is made visible in local churches, which are congregations of believers who are committed to each other for the worship of God, the preaching of the Word, the administering of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper; for pastoral care and discipline, and for evangelism. The unity of the body of Christ is expressed within and between churches by mutual love, care and encouragement. True fellowship between churches exists only where they are faithful to the gospel.
8. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper
Baptism and the Lord’s Supper have been given to the churches by Christ as visible signs of the gospel. Baptism is a symbol of union with Christ and entry into his Church but does not impart spiritual life. The Lord’s Supper is a commemoration of Christ’s sacrifice offered once for all and involves no change in the bread and wine. All its blessings are received by faith.
9. The Future
The Lord Jesus Christ will return in glory. He will raise the dead and judge the world in righteousness. The wicked will be sent to eternal punishment and the righteous will be welcomed into a life of eternal joy in fellowship with God. God will make all things new and will be glorified forever.

I like this confession because it speaks of the sole authority of the Bible, and also its sufficiency. The latter tends to discourage charismatic churches from joining. We have found membership of the Gospel Partnership a great blessing inasmuch as we can have fellowship with other Bible-believing churches, knowing that they are on the same page as we are theologically.

 

This is not about how a man receives salvation but how a person already saved, born again can lose salvation. Those who believe in eternal security believe the human will is secured at salvation in an immutable state by the new birth.

Here is how I look at it. In a nutshell, if it is possible for a true born again child of God to lose salvation, that deficiency must be traced to either Christ or the believer. Someone is at fault if the objective is not reached.

Not many would be so bold to attribute the deficiency to Christ and so that means they will assert the deficiency must be found outside of Christ and his work, which means it is found in the born again believer. However, in claiming the deficiency is in the believer, that is asserting that the covenant work of God is not sufficient or efficient in and of itself without a fourth party (the believer) making some kind of (postive or negative) contribution that makes it so, NOT INITIALLY but ULTIMATLY. Therefore, the denial of eternal security is the assertion that the provision by Christ is not sufficient or efficient in and of itself to save anyone as it is ULTIMATELY dependent upon the one being saved to contribute SOMETHING (negative or positive) that is necessary to make it efficient in obtaining that goal - eternal life.

That "something" which needs to be contributed (whether negative or positive something) is what ulimately actually saves as without it there is no ultimate salvation.

This is also a denial that the work of the Holy Spirit is efficient in applying the provision of Christ apart from that something.

This is also the assertion that the eternal covenant of salvation by the three Divine Persons is insufficient and inefficient to accomplish salvation without that something.

Call that "something' anything you want to call it but it is not found in God's covenant Persons, Christ's provision or the Holy Spirits efficient application but only found IN MAN without which there is loss of salvation.

Call it what you will, but the Bible calls it justification by works as that something is contributed by man to make justificaiton efficient and not by God's covenant, Christ's provision or the Holy Spirit's application.

Again, this is not about reception of salvation but about those acknowleged as born again ultimately acheive justification before God for eternal life.

Therefore, I can fellowship with Baptists who believe in eternal security but do not believe in irresistable grace in reception of salvation. They are simply inconsistent but believe in the efficiency of ultimate salvation. However, those who outright deny eternal security are consistently asserting justification by works from start to finish.

 

I will say this, this is as good as a confession possible for union between paedobaptists and Baptists. It reminds me of the Evangelical and Catholics together agreement. Use the same biblical language but don't define the terms being used too carefully so it allows all parties to interpret them for themselves and feel good about it.

Of course this confession is heretical in points 7 and 8.

 

So says you, so says the traditions of men, but again, try to find any congregation of unbaptized believers in the scripture. Where there is no Biblical baptism there is no true church and only wet infants or believers.

 

That is precisely why I left the SBC because you can find every false doctrine under the sun within it.

 

Believe what you will, but those who deny "eternal life" (as that is what eternal security is, as denial is "temporal conditionary life") are denying the sufficiency and efficiency of the covenant work of redemption which is the idea behind "saved by grace".


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When you bring a believer into church membership you are bringing them into church fellowship/communion. Prior to that this person was outside of church fellowship, if not, then he is a member by just his presence and nothing else is necessary. The terms or conditions that qualify for church fellowship should be consistent with any Christian or Christians that you bring into church fellowship. For example, you pastor fills the pulpit as a member and when you exchange pulpits you are bringing those outside into church fellowship as much as you are individual Christians who are brought into church fellowship.

The Great commission in Matthew 28:19-20 demands those terms of fellowship are like faith and order at least in the gospel and baptism at minimum as only the gospel and baptism are directly referred to in the Great Commission.