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Featured Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 10, 2017.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To reiterate a point that may have been lost - I am not a follower of Calvin. I think he had much to contribute, but at the same time he was wrong on many points. I think you agree here (although you may see more error than I in his teaching). I simply don't think Calvin ever got to the conclusion you think his doctrine of Providence would eventually lead him. I agree with Calvin on predestination, but not necessarily his defense.

    Regarding the Ordinances, the Council, the Council of Two Hundred, and the authority of the church: these were a part of the reform. Calvin had left and was called back to Geneva (ironically with the support of Perrin). The trial of Servetus was with the Council. And yes, Calvin both testified against the man and called for his death. My objection was not to this fact but to those who exaggerate history to make their point (on both sides of the debate). I believe his view of the church, which was carried over from Catholic doctrine, contributed to the error (which his opposition shared as they also called for his death).
     
  2. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    As I keep on saying, anyone speaking of square root of 4 is necessarily talking about 2. Whether they say so is irrelevant. It is ridiculously funny that they go ahead and deny talking about 2.

    I have picked up the Fall. Calvin rejects freewill terming it as fiction. Can you please explain to me in your own words any other possible conclusion apart from God authoring it?

    No more Servetus please.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That link was Calvin in his own words, wy not bother to see what he actually held to then?
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Only God has full and real free will, correct?
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that he is pressing too much in pointing into Calvin what he thinks he meant, notwhat Calvin really meant!
     
  6. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    These quotes are Calvin's and you are scared of even reading them
     
  7. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Read the quotes first and explain to me what they mean
     
  8. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    What is freewill?
     
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You did, and I have not yet replied. I will do so presently
    This is complete nonsense.
    1. The 'hopeless contradictions' are in your head because you will not submit yourself to Scripture.
    2. What else should Calvin appeal to but Scripture? The Koran? The Kama Sutra? The Scriptures clearly state that God is sovereign in all things, and yet He is not the author of sin. It is not for you or me to argue the point, but meekly to submit to the word of God.

    Since you yourself have now quoted Scripture, I will repeat what I posted earlier:

    If the most wicked act in history was the trial, torture and death of our blessed Lord, did God ordain it, or did He merely permit it? Acts 4:27-28.

    27. 'For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus Christ, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together.........
    28. .......to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined beforehand to be done.'
    I say that you have to believe both these verses absolutely. If you believe verse 27 but not v.28, you have a nasty little conspiracy to slay an innocent Man, and God is sitting by impotently, unable or unwilling to prevent it. Perhaps, because he's such a great chess-player, He turns the situation round to His own advantage, but He's reacting to circumstances outside either of His control or His interest.
    If, on the other hand, you believe v.28 and not v.27, you make God the author of evil and men and women are merely ciphers. To gain a proper understanding, you have to accept both verses, and you will see that men are fully responsible and culpable, and God fully sovereign. Can we explain it? Perhaps not, but we accept it because the Bible teaches it. To quote Rogers and Hammerstein:

    'Who can explain it, who can tell you why?
    Fools may give you reasons; wise men never try!'


    Nor is that the only instance that I might give. I keep posting John 6:37 on this subject and I apologize to those who have read this before.

    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......." There is your Calvinism, predestination or whatever you like to call it. God the Father gave to the Son a people to redeem. He has redeemed them at measureless cost and they will come to Him, every single one. "........and the one who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out." There is your general invitation. Whoever comes to Christ in repentance and faith, He will receive. There is no question of anyone being turned away.
    Once again, if we accept the first statement and not the second, we have a rigid determinism that destroys the need for evangelism and even for faith, and if we believe the second statement and not the first, we have a wretched Pelagianism which dispenses with the need for the Holy Spirit. You have to believe both parts of the verse, despite their apparent contradiction, in order to understand the teaching of the Bible. BTW, the same teachings are found together in John 6:39-40 and Matthew 11:25-28.
    I would say that it is not very different from your current brazen lunacy. The point is that the Scriptures do not teach that so the question does not arise.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I have read some of his commentaries and his Institutes, have you?
     
  11. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
    His reckoning of Sovereignty is stupid and unbiblical. Just abandon it instead of infinite verbiage.

    What do you understand by Sovereignty?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The ability to do whatever I desire to do, without ANY restrictions placed upon me exercising my will!
     
  13. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Yes. Now walk me through the quotes
     
  14. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Did Adam possess this freewill?
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which ones?
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree as Calvin did not reach the conclusion or application suggested. But the question of consistency remains. Our hitman friend is not making illogical ends to Calvin's statements. And he may be right that Calvin avoided those ends by appealing to mystery.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree as Calvin did not reach the conclusion or application suggested. But the question of consistency remains. Our hitman friend is not making illogical ends to Calvin's statements. And he may be right that Calvin avoided those ends by appealing to mystery.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is allowed by the scriptures themselves, as God stated that the hidden tings are reserved to Him alone! Have to accept certain things by faith!
    Think Calvin was merely stating that some truths are both held by us, even though not fully ale to understand it! he Bible taches them, and that is what we lean on as truth...
     
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  19. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    I don't know
     
  20. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    We are not permitted to invent mystery where none exists.

    For instance,
    Q.At about what age did Jesus begin his public ministry?
    A. It's a mystery
    B. ~30yrs
     
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