Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

[Agent47]

Well, not speaking for Calvin, yes. But you won’t like it.

We have a specific Calvin quote in mind. My question again is, what other conclusion would you draw from what Calvin said other than God authoring Sin?

I believe that we, by necessity, speak of God as having a “will” as if God were human. Given the present conversation, we are speaking as if God were sitting in the drawing room planning exactly how he would accomplish redemption. Did God plan the Fall? Did God decree the Fall (Calvinism) or Ordain the Fall (Arminianism)? We picture God at his desk planning out redemption…Judas will betray his Son, this he let people know long before it happen (even the price of betrayal)…but does this mean that Judas had a choice?

Fertile imagination I must confess.

I believe this anthropomorphic. God does have a will, but God’s will is not our will.

Most certainly it is not.

God decreed the Fall, that it would happen because this is the purpose God created man – for his own glory.

God designed Sin and saw to it that it came to pass.

He is telling Adam not to eat while he wants him to eat...For his glory? ok!

And Adam ate of the fruit of his own free will.

Which he had to seeing God had decreed.

God did not author evil because God’s intent and motivation was his own glory and that through the redemption of man whereby men become brethren with God and children of the Father.

So the reason he is not the author is because He had other objectives and motivation. Like if I carefully planned to kill your family because I was motivated by having fun, then shared this idea with another man who flawlessly carries.out the heinous act, I didn't author those crimes?

Is authoring Sin dependent on motivation and intent @JonC ?

The evil originated from within the men, as was the inclination of their nature.

God decreed it would originate there. So it was His idea, and like Pharaoh's soldiers man carried out the decree.


Tell me, if God authored Sin, what would he do differently from decreeing?

'Let there be light'
'Let man Sin.....For my own glory'

Awwww. Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away I graduated seminary and was encouraged by my professor to continue post-graduate studies in Church History. I always regretted not making that happen…but it was impossible at the time.

Servetus was a more interesting topic ...just not the one at hand, and since you said "please"....

Ok.

 

[JonC]

We have a specific Calvin quote in mind. My question again is, what other conclusion would you draw from what Calvin said other than God authoring Sin?


Fertile imagination I must confess.


Most certainly it is not.


God designed Sin and saw to it that it came to pass.

He is telling Adam not to eat while he wants him to eat...For his glory? ok!


Which he had to seeing God had decreed.


So the reason he is not the author is because He had other objectives and motivation. Like if I carefully planned to kill your family because I was motivated by having fun, then shared this idea with another man who flawlessly carries.out the heinous act, I didn't author those crimes?

Is authoring Sin dependent on motivation and intent @JonC ?


God decreed it would originate there. So it was His idea, and like Pharaoh's soldiers man carried out the decree.


Tell me, if God authored Sin, what would he do differently from decreeing?

'Let there be light'
'Let man Sin.....For my own glory'

Ok.

Do you believe that it was the will of the Father for Jesus to be crucified? Do you believe it was a sin on the part of those who crucified Jesus? Do you know that Peter told the Jews that their part in Jesus' death was a sin but that it was also determined by God?

As I said, I don't believe God's will to be as man's will. Your illustration of the Pharaoh ordering his men maintains what I believe to be a flaw in understanding. We cannot understand God except to the extent that God reveals himself to us. God's fullest revelation of himself to man is in sending his Son, Jesus Christ. But what you seek is beyond this. Scripture tells us that God has predestined at least some things. And many of those things which Scripture tells us God predestined was also a cause of condemnation for those through which they came to pass. Forget how many, just that there is one supports Calvin's conclusions that God predestines without being the author of evil.

And this is how I can see Calvin not concluding what you present should have been his conclusion, as I posted a while back. You applied his comments in Book 1 to the topic of Book 3 to arrive at a contrived conclusion.

 

[Agent47]

Do you believe that it was the will of the Father for Jesus to be crucified? Do you believe it was a sin on the part of those who crucified Jesus? Do you know that Peter told the Jews that their part in Jesus' death was a sin but that it was also determined by God?

Thought I answered this. God gave His son as a sacrifice for sin. Nowhere is it written nor suggested that God willed crucifixion or even planned it.

As I said, I don't believe God's will to be as man's will. Your illustration of the Pharaoh ordering his men maintains what I believe to be a flaw in understanding.

What flaw?
What is the correct understanding?

We cannot understand God except to the extent that God reveals himself to us. God's fullest revelation of himself to man is in sending his Son, Jesus Christ.

True

But what you seek is beyond this. Scripture tells us that God has predestined at least some things. And many of those things which Scripture tells us God predestined was also a cause of condemnation for those through which they came to pass.

I have never seen any scriptural example of such. Share one if you don't mind.

Forget how many, just that there is one supports Calvin's conclusions that God predestines without being the author of evil.

There is not a single such instance. It takes copious amounts of proof texting to read such ideas onto this.

As I told you earlier, countless examples abound of God employing the agency of evil to bring His purpose. This is very different from charging Him with crafting evil circumstances and in the words of Hodge, 'rendering them certain'.

Btw, what's the difference between CAUSING and RENDERING CERTAIN? I can't see any beyond spelling

And this is how I can see Calvin not concluding what you present should have been his conclusion, as I posted a while back. You applied his comments in Book 1 to the topic of Book 3 to arrive at a contrived conclusion.

Contrived is what Calvin invented. I'm just exposing it as such. These are not my theories.

As I asked,
In your opinion, what would God do differently to be the author of sin at Eden?

 

[JonC]

I have never seen any scriptural example of such. Share one if you don't mind.

Sure. That's exactly what God did with Assyria. He (God) raised them up against Israel, and then destroyed them for rising up against Israel.

I also believe Scripture provided proof the crucifixion of Christ was not an event outside of God's design. I think Psalm 22 and Peter's sermons in Acts demonstrate this as true.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, not speaking for Calvin, yes. But you won’t like it.

I believe that we, by necessity, speak of God as having a “will” as if God were human. Given the present conversation, we are speaking as if God were sitting in the drawing room planning exactly how he would accomplish redemption. Did God plan the Fall? Did God decree the Fall (Calvinism) or Ordain the Fall (Arminianism)? We picture God at his desk planning out redemption…Judas will betray his Son, this he let people know long before it happen (even the price of betrayal)…but does this mean that Judas had a choice?

I believe this anthropomorphic. God does have a will, but God’s will is not our will. God decreed the Fall, that it would happen because this is the purpose God created man – for his own glory. And Adam ate of the fruit of his own free will. God decreed that Judas would betray Jesus. And Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will. God decreed the Cross. And the Jews crucified Jesus of their own free will. But in all of this (the Fall, Judas’ betrayal, Jesus’ crucifixion) God did not author evil because God’s intent and motivation was his own glory and that through the redemption of man whereby men become brethren with God and children of the Father. The evil originated from within the men, as was the inclination of their nature.

Awwww. Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away I graduated seminary and was encouraged by my professor to continue post-graduate studies in Church History. I always regretted not making that happen…but it was impossible at the time.

Servetus was a more interesting topic ...just not the one at hand, and since you said "please"....

We cannot really understnd how the Lord really functions fully in this matter, as we are finite and limited, kence appeal of Cavlin to a divine mystery here!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thought I answered this. God gave His son as a sacrifice for sin. Nowhere is it written nor suggested that God willed crucifixion or even planned it.



What flaw?
What is the correct understanding?


True

I have never seen any scriptural example of such. Share one if you don't mind.


There is not a single such instance. It takes copious amounts of proof texting to read such ideas onto this.

As I told you earlier, countless examples abound of God employing the agency of evil to bring His purpose. This is very different from charging Him with crafting evil circumstances and in the words of Hodge, 'rendering them certain'.

Btw, what's the difference between CAUSING and RENDERING CERTAIN? I can't see any beyond spelling


Contrived is what Calvin invented. I'm just exposing it as such. These are not my theories.

As I asked,
In your opinion, what would God do differently to be the author of sin at Eden?

God has theplan of te Ctoss from eternit past, andit was His will to have Messiah bruised and crushed and killed for our sins, see Isaiah!

 

[Agent47]

Sure. That's exactly what God did with Assyria. He (God) raised them up against Israel, and then destroyed them for rising up against Israel.

You'll have to try harder.

I can't see God controlling the Assyrians thoughts,desires and actions, and then holding them accountable for these irresistibly controlled thoughts,actions and desires.

They became instrument of wrath in God's hands against Israel because they were...watch this...They were already bent on conquest(Isaiah 10:7). As existing enemies of Israel, they were the perfect rod/staff of correction.

Think of 911. America had sworn enemies by the name of Islamic extremists. All God has to do to punish US is remove His hedge (note, I'm not even trying to say this is what happened)

And assuming your reading is right. God takes credit for punishing Israel. He punishes Assyria not for attacking but for pride (v13). So if God owns up acts of men that He has caused, why do you struggle accepting He made Adam to fall?

God did not 'render certain' or 'permissively decree' Israel judgement; He judged Israel. Similarly, repeat after me, 'God efficaciously authored Sin'

I also believe Scripture provided proof the crucifixion of Christ was not an event outside of God's design. I think Psalm 22 and Peter's sermons in Acts demonstrate this as true.

As I said, it takes superhuman effort to read any of your conclusions in either of these passages.

God gave His own life...He laid it down. Arresting Jesus and trying him was a highly predictable outcome of the Triumphal Entry. So God did not have to cause nobody to crucify Christ. All He did was permit them to do as they wished.

 

[Agent47]

We cannot really understnd how the Lord really functions fully in this matter, as we are finite and limited, kence appeal of Cavlin to a divine mystery here!

Then stop trying to explain.

 

[Agent47]

God has theplan of te Ctoss from eternit past, andit was His will to have Messiah bruised and crushed and killed for our sins, see Isaiah!

Show me crucifixion from scriptures before Christ spoke of it. Or zip it

 

[Yeshua1]

You'll have to try harder.

I can't see God controlling the Assyrians thoughts,desires and actions, and then holding them accountable for these irresistibly controlled thoughts,actions and desires.

They became instrument of wrath in God's hands against Israel because they were...watch this...They were already bent on conquest(Isaiah 10:7). As existing enemies of Israel, they were the perfect rod/staff of correction.

And assuming your reading is right. God takes credit for punishing Israel. He punishes Assyria not for attacking but for pride (v13). So if God owns up acts of men that He has caused, why do you struggle accepting He made Adam to fall?


As I said, it takes superhuman effort to read any of your conclusions in either of these passages.

God gave His own life...He laid it down. Arresting Jesus and trying him was a highly predictable outcome of the Triumphal Entry. So God did not have to cause nobody to crucify Christ. All He did was permit them to do as they wished.

God had predetermined all he way back from eternity to have Messaih come and die for sinnersto be saved, as he announced tha in Genesis 3:15. correct? God placed all of His wraith on Jesus at the Cross, correct?
God detrmined te time messiah woul come, how, nd when ad how he would die, was that not all predetermined?

 

[Yeshua1]

Show me crucifixion from scriptures before Christ spoke of it. Or zip it

Isaiah 53....

 

[Agent47]

God had predetermined all he way back from eternity to have Messaih come and die for sinnersto be saved, as he announced tha in Genesis 3:15. correct? God placed all of His wraith on Jesus at the Cross, correct?
God detrmined te time messiah woul come, how, nd when ad how he would die, was that not all predetermined?

incoherence

 

[Agent47]

Isaiah 53....

Where?

 

[JonC]

You'll have to try harder.

I can't see God controlling the Assyrians thoughts,desires and actions, and then holding them accountable for these irresistibly controlled thoughts,actions and desires.

They became instrument of wrath in God's hands against Israel because they were...watch this...They were already bent on conquest(Isaiah 10:7). As existing enemies of Israel, they were the perfect rod/staff of correction.

Think of 911. America had sworn enemies by the name of Islamic extremists. All God has to do to punish US is remove His hedge (note, I'm not even trying to say this is what happened)

And assuming your reading is right. God takes credit for punishing Israel. He punishes Assyria not for attacking but for pride (v13). So if God owns up acts of men that He has caused, why do you struggle accepting He made Adam to fall?

God did not 'render certain' or 'permissively decree' Israel judgement; He judged Israel. Similarly, repeat after me, 'God efficaciously authored Sin'

As I said, it takes superhuman effort to read any of your conclusions in either of these passages.

God gave His own life...He laid it down. Arresting Jesus and trying him was a highly predictable outcome of the Triumphal Entry. So God did not have to cause nobody to crucify Christ. All He did was permit them to do as they wished.

Actually, no. I don't have to try harder. Throughout Scripture when Israel is taken captive or conquered, God is presented as the "CAUSE" (which is the whole point). Amos even specifically has God saying he will "CAUSE" the armies to come against them.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then stop trying to explain.

If we took tha logic, then there would be no theology books written, as NONE have a full understanding on God, as he is infinite, while we are not!

 

[Agent47]

Actually, no. I don't have to try harder. Throughout Scripture when Israel is taken captive or conquered, God is presented as the "CAUSE" (which is the whole point). Amos even specifically has God saying he will "CAUSE" the armies to come against them.

God CAUSED the Fall. That was His brainchild. Devised in eternity, flawlessly executed by the First Adam with nil probability of failure or deviation

 

[Agent47]

If we took tha logic, then there would be no theology books written, as NONE have a full understanding on God, as he is infinite, while we are not!

Circular reasoning

 

[Yeshua1]

Circular reasoning

Notreally, as God has told us in he Bible all that we need to know, but he has not given to us all HE knows!

 

[Agent47]

Notreally, as God has told us in he Bible all that we need to know, but he has not given to us all HE knows!

What is mystery? What I don't know
What don't I know? Mystery

 

[Yeshua1]

What is mystery? What I don't know
What don't I know? Mystery

It is a term used in the Bible!