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Featured Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 10, 2017.

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  1. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    We have a specific Calvin quote in mind. My question again is, what other conclusion would you draw from what Calvin said other than God authoring Sin?

    Fertile imagination I must confess.

    Most certainly it is not.

    God designed Sin and saw to it that it came to pass.

    He is telling Adam not to eat while he wants him to eat:rolleyes:...For his glory? ok!

    Which he had to seeing God had decreed.

    So the reason he is not the author is because He had other objectives and motivation. Like if I carefully planned to kill your family because I was motivated by having fun, then shared this idea with another man who flawlessly carries.out the heinous act, I didn't author those crimes?

    Is authoring Sin dependent on motivation and intent @JonC ?

    God decreed it would originate there. So it was His idea, and like Pharaoh's soldiers man carried out the decree.


    Tell me, if God authored Sin, what would he do differently from decreeing?

    'Let there be light'
    'Let man Sin.....For my own glory'
    Ok.
     
    #81 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you believe that it was the will of the Father for Jesus to be crucified? Do you believe it was a sin on the part of those who crucified Jesus? Do you know that Peter told the Jews that their part in Jesus' death was a sin but that it was also determined by God?

    As I said, I don't believe God's will to be as man's will. Your illustration of the Pharaoh ordering his men maintains what I believe to be a flaw in understanding. We cannot understand God except to the extent that God reveals himself to us. God's fullest revelation of himself to man is in sending his Son, Jesus Christ. But what you seek is beyond this. Scripture tells us that God has predestined at least some things. And many of those things which Scripture tells us God predestined was also a cause of condemnation for those through which they came to pass. Forget how many, just that there is one supports Calvin's conclusions that God predestines without being the author of evil.

    And this is how I can see Calvin not concluding what you present should have been his conclusion, as I posted a while back. You applied his comments in Book 1 to the topic of Book 3 to arrive at a contrived conclusion.
     
    #82 JonC, Jan 12, 2017
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  3. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Thought I answered this. God gave His son as a sacrifice for sin. Nowhere is it written nor suggested that God willed crucifixion or even planned it.


    What flaw?
    What is the correct understanding?

    True
    I have never seen any scriptural example of such. Share one if you don't mind.

    There is not a single such instance. It takes copious amounts of proof texting to read such ideas onto this.

    As I told you earlier, countless examples abound of God employing the agency of evil to bring His purpose. This is very different from charging Him with crafting evil circumstances and in the words of Hodge, 'rendering them certain'.

    Btw, what's the difference between CAUSING and RENDERING CERTAIN? I can't see any beyond spelling

    Contrived is what Calvin invented. I'm just exposing it as such. These are not my theories.

    As I asked,
    In your opinion, what would God do differently to be the author of sin at Eden?
     
    #83 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sure. That's exactly what God did with Assyria. He (God) raised them up against Israel, and then destroyed them for rising up against Israel.

    I also believe Scripture provided proof the crucifixion of Christ was not an event outside of God's design. I think Psalm 22 and Peter's sermons in Acts demonstrate this as true.
     
    #84 JonC, Jan 12, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We cannot really understnd how the Lord really functions fully in this matter, as we are finite and limited, kence appeal of Cavlin to a divine mystery here!
     
    #85 Yeshua1, Jan 12, 2017
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God has theplan of te Ctoss from eternit past, andit was His will to have Messiah bruised and crushed and killed for our sins, see Isaiah!
     
    #86 Yeshua1, Jan 12, 2017
  7. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    You'll have to try harder.

    I can't see God controlling the Assyrians thoughts,desires and actions, and then holding them accountable for these irresistibly controlled thoughts,actions and desires.

    They became instrument of wrath in God's hands against Israel because they were...watch this...They were already bent on conquest(Isaiah 10:7). As existing enemies of Israel, they were the perfect rod/staff of correction.

    Think of 911. America had sworn enemies by the name of Islamic extremists. All God has to do to punish US is remove His hedge (note, I'm not even trying to say this is what happened)

    And assuming your reading is right. God takes credit for punishing Israel. He punishes Assyria not for attacking but for pride (v13). So if God owns up acts of men that He has caused, why do you struggle accepting He made Adam to fall?

    God did not 'render certain' or 'permissively decree' Israel judgement; He judged Israel. Similarly, repeat after me, 'God efficaciously authored Sin'
    As I said, it takes superhuman effort to read any of your conclusions in either of these passages.

    God gave His own life...He laid it down. Arresting Jesus and trying him was a highly predictable outcome of the Triumphal Entry. So God did not have to cause nobody to crucify Christ. All He did was permit them to do as they wished.
     
    #87 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
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  8. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Then stop trying to explain.
     
    #88 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
  9. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Show me crucifixion from scriptures before Christ spoke of it. Or zip it
     
    #89 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God had predetermined all he way back from eternity to have Messaih come and die for sinnersto be saved, as he announced tha in Genesis 3:15. correct? God placed all of His wraith on Jesus at the Cross, correct?
    God detrmined te time messiah woul come, how, nd when ad how he would die, was that not all predetermined?
     
    #90 Yeshua1, Jan 12, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah 53....
     
    #91 Yeshua1, Jan 12, 2017
  12. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    incoherence
     
    #92 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
  13. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Where?
     
    #93 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Actually, no. I don't have to try harder. Throughout Scripture when Israel is taken captive or conquered, God is presented as the "CAUSE" (which is the whole point). Amos even specifically has God saying he will "CAUSE" the armies to come against them.
     
    #94 JonC, Jan 12, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If we took tha logic, then there would be no theology books written, as NONE have a full understanding on God, as he is infinite, while we are not!
     
    #95 Yeshua1, Jan 12, 2017
  16. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    God CAUSED the Fall. That was His brainchild. Devised in eternity, flawlessly executed by the First Adam with nil probability of failure or deviation:)
     
    #96 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
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  17. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Circular reasoning
     
    #97 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Notreally, as God has told us in he Bible all that we need to know, but he has not given to us all HE knows!
     
    #98 Yeshua1, Jan 12, 2017
  19. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    What is mystery? What I don't know
    What don't I know? Mystery
     
    #99 Agent47, Jan 12, 2017
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It is a term used in the Bible!
     
    #100 Yeshua1, Jan 12, 2017
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