Covenant Theology Confusion

[Covenanter]

A children's talk from 3 years ago.



Children
Can you remember the text you learnt at the Holiday Bible Club? Let's say it together:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John chapter 3, verse 16.

Do your parents have a special name for you? A name that shows they love you in a special way? Would you be embarrassed if I asked you to tell me?

We often have special names – pet names - for those we love – darling, sweetheart, my love, Daddy's girl or Mummy's boy, Baby. A married lady I know with a proper Indian name is still called Dolly.

I think of my grandchildren as my Treasure.

Did you notice what God said he would call the people of Israel.

if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Ex. 19:5

My treasured possession shows how much God loves his people who trust him & follow him.

God loves us & calls us to turn from our sin & trust in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. When we do, we become God's treasure – his treasured possession.

There is a special word for God's promises - “Covenant” - and the simplest expression of God's covenant is: “You will be my people, and I will be your God.”

Repeat that with me: “You will be my people, and I will be your God.”

 

[Covenanter]

1. The covenant relationship of God with his people Israel.

We read in Exodus 19 about God's special message to the Israelites. They are safely out of Egypt and in the wilderness of Sinai. They are safe, so God reveals himself to them & explains the special relationship.

First the good news:
Ex. 19:4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'
These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak.
8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.

The people of Israel responded enthusiastically to God's message of love: "We will do everything the LORD has said."

But, we need to note a key word in God's message – IF - if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.

God then spends time revealing himself with his glory veiled by clouds, & speaking to the people directly giving them the ten commandments. They are terrified. (Ex. 20)

Then in Exodus 24, Moses reads out all the words of the commandments that Israel must keep under the terms of the covenant, and again they promise obedience.

The sacrifice shows that God knows that perfect obedience is not possible for people, however hard we try. The blood of the sacrifice is sprinkled on the people to guarantee that God will keep the covenant. He has made his covenant promises. God accepts willing obedience from his people when they seek to serve him from the heart.

He gave sacrifices for sin, to show that disobedience deserved death, but he would accept the blood of sacrificed animals, offered in faith, & their blood would cover the sins of the people.

The elders are even given a sight of the glorious LORD. Ex. 24:9-11.

Israel has a wonderful covenant promising a very special relationship as the covenant people of God - my treasured possession.

What could go wrong?

 

[kyredneck]

What could go wrong?

You've said it already, the blessings were conditional:

if you obey me fully and keep my covenant

 

[Covenanter]

The covenant broken.

Moses goes back up the mountain, leaving Aaron in charge, and the people soon get bored. All they have to do is relax & care for their families & cattle, collect manna & water & live in peace.

BUT before Moses reappears a few weeks later, the people start complaining.

Ex. 32:1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain,they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."

That promised obedience is soon forgotten, & the covenant rejected by the people.

Remember Ex. 19:5 if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.

IF ! They repeatedly show their disobedience to God's covenant, so that only two of all those adults delivered from Egypt arrived safely in the promised land – forty years later. The rest died in the wilderness.

The history of Israel in the Old Testament is a cycle of disobedience to the covenants, punishment, a call to repentance by the prophets, and a short-lived return to obedience.

How could God's wonderful covenant promises be fulfilled?

 

[kyredneck]

How could God's wonderful covenant promises be fulfilled?

For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

 

[Covenanter]

For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

Agreed. All the promises to Israel can ONLY be realised in Christ & through Christ.

Although all Israel & all mankind are guilty sinners, the promises remained to be received by faith -

Mal.3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​

Verse 17a is a reminder of Ex. 19 - my treasured possession. Zechariah speaks of the redeemed being jewels in his crown.

There's a mystery there & we need a new covenant to sort out.

 

[Covenanter]

The "everlasting" covenant of God is an eternal covenant or a covenant that existed prior to the foundation of the world as a product of the eternal purpose of redemption wherein man is only the OBJECT or BENEFICIARY of this covenant ("WHOM he...THEM he also..."). In TIME and SPACE this covenant is made with INDIVIDUALS in the sense of application through faith in the gospel (Acts 10:43) as in the case of David (1 Sam. 25:7) who was part of the COVENANT TYPE as an Israelite but his LITERAL salvation was due to the UNCONDITIONAL "everlasting covenant":

Biblicist, I hope I am understanding you in contributing to the the thread.

I have quoted one paragraph which I believe is the thrust of your belief. I would question that in the sense that the eternal Covenant was made with Christ in eternity, & effected with the redeemed IN CHRIST in time.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, I hope I am understanding you in contributing to the the thread.

I have quoted one paragraph which I believe is the thrust of your belief. I would question that in the sense that the eternal Covenant was made with Christ in eternity, & effected with the redeemed IN CHRIST in time.

Yes, that is what I believe. The covenant was made in eternity between the Triune Persons of the Godhead and applied in time to the elect. In other words, we "were by nature the children of wrath even as others" prior to regeneration.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, that is what I believe. The covenant was made in eternity between the Triune Persons of the Godhead and applied in time to the elect. In other words, we "were by nature the children of wrath even as others" prior to regeneration.

Covenant theologians make the distinction of what you are speaking of as the Eternal Covenant, as the Covenant of Redemption.

When it is applied to the elect in time it is said to be the Covenant of Grace.

There is a distinction to be made here.

 

[percho]

Biblicist, I hope I am understanding you in contributing to the the thread.

I have quoted one paragraph which I believe is the thrust of your belief. I would question that in the sense that the eternal Covenant was made with Christ in eternity, & effected with the redeemed IN CHRIST in time.

As in,,,? In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:17 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. Psalms 139:15,16

?The everlasting covenant?

 

[Covenanter]

Covenant theologians make the distinction of what you are speaking of as the Eternal Covenant, as the Covenant of Redemption.

When it is applied to the elect in time it is said to be the Covenant of Grace.

There is a distinction to be made here.

Are there in effect different covenants? What is the distinction , if any?

The OC, given through Moses in Ex. 19 & the following chapters, was ineffective, in that it required obedience to the Law. As Hebrews points out:

8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant .....​

The promises relating the the OC will also fail, not that the promises are faulty but they are conditional on obedience by man.
In the wisdom of God all the problems, failings & legal requirements can be met only by the perfect obedience of God incarnate, born as Son of God & Son of man, born under the Law.

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.​

Jesus not only fulfilled ALL the demands of the Law, as our representative, he suffered the penalty for our guilt under the Law.

When the Law was dedicated (Exo. 24) it was dedicated with a blood sacrifice sprinkled on the people.

Exo. 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
Heb. 8:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant/testament which God hath enjoined unto you.​

The type-antetype relationship is clear:

Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?​

The eternal covenant in the blood of Jesus is realised in time, in type by the OC & by Calvary when Jesus gives bread & wine - the NC in his blood. By all means preach a covenant of grace, but by that you are preaching the eternal/everlasting covenant:

Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe the everlasting covenant is the only covenant of redemption from Genesis to Revelation. All other covenants either typify truths of the everlasting covenant and/or demonstrate the need of it.

For example, Abraham was saved/justified prior to the Abrahamic covenant which was sealed by circumcision. He was saved under the everlasting covenant while circumcision simply typified the new birth already received at the point of faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:8, 17 "in Christ").

The OC was "added" in order to instruct Israel AS WELL AS ALL INDIVIDUALS within Israel they were sinners (the law's standard) and needed Christ as Savior (Gal. 3:17-25; Acts 10:43) as typified in the ceremonial law. David was under the OC but was saved by faith under the everlasting covenant (2 Sam. 23:5) as were all individual elect between Genesis and the cross (Isa. 55:3) and after the cross (Acts 13:34).

 

[kyredneck]

I believe the everlasting covenant is the only covenant of redemption from Genesis to Revelation. All other covenants either typify truths of the everlasting covenant and/or demonstrate the need of it.

For example, Abraham was saved/justified prior to the Abrahamic covenant which was sealed by circumcision. He was saved under the everlasting covenant while circumcision simply typified the new birth already received at the point of faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:8, 17 "in Christ").

The OC was "added" in order to instruct Israel AS WELL AS ALL INDIVIDUALS within Israel they were sinners (the law's standard) and needed Christ as Savior (Gal. 3:17-25; Acts 10:43) as typified in the ceremonial law. David was under the OC but was saved by faith under the everlasting covenant (2 Sam. 23:5) as were all individual elect between Genesis and the cross (Isa. 55:3) and after the cross (Acts 13:34).

I liked your post with one exception; it appears you don't hold to 'born from above' BEFORE faith. You're conflating 'the heavenly birth' and 'saved', regeneration and conversion.

Was Abraham unregenerate prior to Gen 15:6?

 

[Iconoclast]

Are there in effect different covenants? What is the distinction , if any?

The OC, given through Moses in Ex. 19 & the following chapters, was ineffective, in that it required obedience to the Law. As Hebrews points out:

8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant .....​

The promises relating the the OC will also fail, not that the promises are faulty but they are conditional on obedience by man.
In the wisdom of God all the problems, failings & legal requirements can be met only by the perfect obedience of God incarnate, born as Son of God & Son of man, born under the Law.

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.​

Jesus not only fulfilled ALL the demands of the Law, as our representative, he suffered the penalty for our guilt under the Law.

When the Law was dedicated (Exo. 24) it was dedicated with a blood sacrifice sprinkled on the people.

Exo. 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
Heb. 8:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant/testament which God hath enjoined unto you.​

The type-antetype relationship is clear:

Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?​

The eternal covenant in the blood of Jesus is realised in time, in type by the OC & by Calvary when Jesus gives bread & wine - the NC in his blood. By all means preach a covenant of grace, but by that you are preaching the eternal/everlasting covenant:

Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

I agree with Biblicist for the most part on this. It has been pointed out that before the world was the persons of the God head planned and purposed all.things.
As this plan is progressivly revealed and granted to men through promises ,oaths, and types....they speak of this process as the covenant of grace as it is extended to man.
The difference being men were not created as of yet,when the Covenant was a decreed certainty, but they were already considered as fallen and In the Redeemer.

 

[Yeshua1]

Covenant theologians make the distinction of what you are speaking of as the Eternal Covenant, as the Covenant of Redemption.

When it is applied to the elect in time it is said to be the Covenant of Grace.

There is a distinction to be made here.

Correct, for between those 2 was the One of works with Adam!

 

[Yeshua1]

I liked your post with one exception; it appears you don't hold to 'born from above' BEFORE faith. You're conflating 'the heavenly birth' and 'saved', regeneration and conversion.

Was Abraham unregenerate prior to Gen 15:6?

We were all sinners, so were NOT His children until the rebirth event!

 

[Yeshua1]

Are there in effect different covenants? What is the distinction , if any?

The OC, given through Moses in Ex. 19 & the following chapters, was ineffective, in that it required obedience to the Law. As Hebrews points out:

8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant .....​

The promises relating the the OC will also fail, not that the promises are faulty but they are conditional on obedience by man.
In the wisdom of God all the problems, failings & legal requirements can be met only by the perfect obedience of God incarnate, born as Son of God & Son of man, born under the Law.

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.​

Jesus not only fulfilled ALL the demands of the Law, as our representative, he suffered the penalty for our guilt under the Law.

When the Law was dedicated (Exo. 24) it was dedicated with a blood sacrifice sprinkled on the people.

Exo. 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
Heb. 8:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant/testament which God hath enjoined unto you.​

The type-antetype relationship is clear:

Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?​

The eternal covenant in the blood of Jesus is realised in time, in type by the OC & by Calvary when Jesus gives bread & wine - the NC in his blood. By all means preach a covenant of grace, but by that you are preaching the eternal/everlasting covenant:

Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

the Covenant of Grace was when the eternal One got into history, unto mankind itself!

 

[Iconoclast]

the Covenant of Grace was when the eternal One got into history, unto mankind itself!

The COG is revealed before the incarnation

 

[kyredneck]

We were all sinners, so were NOT His children until the rebirth event!

Is this supposed to be the answer to the question, "Was Abraham unregenerate prior to Gen 15:6?"?

 

[JonC]

I agree with Biblicist for the most part on this. It has been pointed out that before the world was the persons of the God head planned and purposed all.things.
As this plan is progressivly revealed and granted to men through promises ,oaths, and types....they speak of this process as the covenant of grace as it is extended to man.
The difference being men were not created as of yet,when the Covenant was a decreed certainty, but they were already considered as fallen and In the Redeemer.

I think that we are looking at different "everlasting covenants". When I hear the term, I think of God's everlasting covenant between Himself (the Trinity) and His people. Throughout Scripture the people of God appeal to this covenant specifically because it was made with them. If you will, please provide a few passages so that I can better see the distinction between this and the everlasting covenant of which you are referring.

Here is the one I'm talking about (are we looking at the same thing differently, or is there another everlasting covenant?).

Genesis 17 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you...

Jeremiah 32 "They shall be My people, and I will be their God; and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul."

Ezekiel 16 "Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant. Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD, so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done," the Lord GOD declares.

Ezekiel 37 "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."