Featured Indulgences

Here is the scope of the Thread:

Okay, you will have to excuse me, Mennosota, I did miss that it was a quote. My error.

Now, we move on to looking at this official teaching.

Why not just go to the source?

Not really, the importance is outlined in the scope:

And what is important is that point (2) has been addressed by a Catholic and ignored.

That is basically an underlying issue that motivated the thread.

Secondly, a short quote with what might be thought favorable impact on an argument you present hardly fulfills a look at Indulgences.

Okay, again, sorry for my goof, I was being sloppy, so let's proceed on to a fuller look under the scope of the thread.


God bless.

 

I see nothing in this that supports a Doctrine that allows for Indulgences.

Rather, Paul contrasts his own sufferings with that of Christ for the Body and his...are lacking.

Not Christ's.

Not a single thing, else He had not stated "It is finished."

And the burden now lies on you to produce (1) Scripture that actually teaches that and (2) Official Catholic Doctrine that teaches that, that we might compare them.

Since an argument has been presented that there is Scriptural Support for Indulgences, and you know that many who are not Catholic reject Oral tradition, then we need to meet on common ground and examine anything you feel in Scripture supports the doctrine and practice.

I do not see the above as doing so.

My friend, could you show me where Scripture at any point suggests that saints suffer in Heaven?

We know there is grief suggested but in view in these contexts is physical suffering of the body.

Then you reject the teaching earlier posted from a Catholic site...

Myth 5: An indulgence will shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days.


The number of days which used to be attached to indulgences were references to the period of penance one might undergo during life on earth. The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general, much less in a specific person’s case.


...?


God bless.

 

Thanks for the quote, rsr. Now, if we can just figure out what in the world they mean by what they are saying, and how Catholics understand it, and then compare that with how Indulgences are presented by those of other groups.

Something I would point out is that there is a distinction made between...

The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains.


How do we look at that? How does the Catholic look at it.

This...

While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.

...needs clarification, because it is difficult to say whether the temporal punishment is the sufferings and trials of life, or, they are saying it follows the sufferings and trials of life.

This...


He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man.


...seems to indicate that temporal suffering is part of the process of "putting on the new man."

Any Catholics care to comment?


Continued...

 

Seems to be a straightforward statement concerning Christ, and attributes that which is "meritorious" to Him.

It is the merits of Christ by which mankind could be set free from sin and attain Communion with the Father.

This seems pretty clear:

In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy.

While I view this as error, it doesn't really strike me as any more harmful than thinking that Christ's literal physical blood was carried into Heaven and sprinkled on the Throne of God, as a number of Fundamentalists believe.

We do see mention of the prayers of the Saints in Revelation three times.

And I think we see a root cause for doctrines like this...to keep people from questioning the Leadership.

I was recently told by an associate Pastor that basically people need to be brought to the Church so they can be taught, the implication that the regular folk have no business teaching and preaching.

That is one of my biggest griefs with the Catholic Church is their stranglehold on the Word of God (both now and historically) and their inclination to suppress personal study by the "regular folk (us plow boys, lol)."

But to be honest, I see the same thing in most groups, though they may not have official statements that can be traced back centuries. And still, despite this, there are still those in those groups that study on their own, and do not take every word of their leadership as Gospel truth.


God bless.

 

Darrell C said: ↑

Please present an official statement from the Catholic Church, and why you disagree with it, so that we might better understand this issue by looking at what is actually taught..


I didn't ask for links so I could research what your views are, lol.

If there is something in there you disagree with, quote it, state why you disagree, and then we can discuss it.


God bless.

 

Now we are getting somewhere.

Isn't it odd that we have conflict in the Catholic Church as to what is the official position of the Catholic Church?

Now let me quote the position of an actual Catholic that is a member here, rsr...

And this has been in large part ignored, and I would bet argyle socks that despite the fact that Indulgences are not a Doctrine or Practice of this Catholic that will not make a shred of difference in how they are treated...because they are a Catholic.


God bless.

 

I didn't see that in your post. Could you quote the relevant issue, it sounds interesting.


God bless.

 

I think that in Adonia's case there is no question the Doctrine holds no true relevance to his beliefs. That testimony has already been given.


God bless.

 

Regeneration is a one-time event which excludes it from being associated with efforts of the Body of Christ in the temporal. We don't become almost the sons of God, or hopefully one day the sons of God, we become the sons of God when we are born of God, which is immediate to those who believe on the name of Christ.

Being born of God is not something men can effect:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Regeneration, or, being born again, is synonymous with being born from above, Born of God, Born of the Spirit.

It is the Gospel and the Resurrection which Peter declares as the means of Regeneration:



1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



1 Peter 1:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

There is no mention of Regeneration in this passage, and the command to receive the Spirit does not nullify Christ's teaching that the Eternal Indwelling of God would commence when the Comforter came (which would take place after Christ returned to Heaven).

So it is quite impossible to say the disciples are born again Christians at this point because one is not a new creature until they are reconciled to God and brought into Eternal Union with Him.

I do agree that in view are the disciples being commissioned, sent as Christ was sent, however, we do not equate remission of sins by men with the remission of sins accomplished by Christ through His Offering of Himself. One has a temporal context (as even the sins forgiven by Christ during His earthly Ministry, meaning, those whose sins He forgave were still in need of the Atonement after that) and one has an Eternal context.


God bless.

 

This is not a thread to bash Catholics or Catholic Doctrine, rsr. The topic is Indulgences, how it is taught by the Catholic Church, how it is perceived by Catholics themselves, and how it is perceived by those who stand in opposition to it.

There are numerous Catholic Doctrines which are irrelevant to numerous Catholics, just as there are numerous Protestant Doctrines that are not only not relevant to many Protestants, but rejected.


God bless.