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7th Day Sabbath

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Jason1

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OK, if we accept Acts 15 then circumcision AND the entirety of the Law of Moses has been set aside apart from the consumption of blood..

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
...
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
...
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
For one thing before the flood only vegetation was eaten:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

For another God makes the rules, He changes the rules when he sees fit.
They didn't eat animal flesh at all on the ark, they were still vegetarians until they came out of the ark, then they were allowed to eat "everything that moves"

HankD
You missed a verse in there Hank:

Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”

You think the only thing was not drink blood? What about murder, stealing, adultery? See,how that wouldn't make any sense.

They were commanded those 4 prohibitions (idolatry) and then they were able to enter the congregation (not circumcize and keep everything first). THEN they would learn the law of moses (torah) every sabbath at the synagogue. They don't have to enter through judaism, they enter through faith and grow into obedience.
 

Jason1

Member
Jason, just admit you are making it up on the fly. Your standard cop out is "man's standards" not "God's standards", but you...a mere man...are the one determining which standard it is. That's hypocritical on your part.
If you can't see there are two laws at work in the NT and don't care to search these things out, I can't help you. Jesus is the word made flesh and upheld His Father's commandments perfectly. What both he and Paul always came against were the additions of man (oral law). This is easy to see in the NT.

Mat_15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men'"
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
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If you can't see there are two laws at work in the NT and don't care to search these things out, I can't help you. Jesus is the word made flesh and upheld His Father's commandments perfectly. What both he and Paul always came against were the additions of man (oral law). This is easy to see in the NT.

Mat_15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men'"
You are not addressing the question.

How do you determine "God's laws" rather than "man's laws?"

What I observe is you...a man...determining which laws you call God's laws and which laws you call man's laws. You are creating your own mitzvahs. You are a man. Thus...

You don't see that as hypocritical?
 

Jason1

Member
You are not addressing the question.

How do you determine "God's laws" rather than "man's laws?"

What I observe is you...a man...determining which laws you call God's laws and which laws you call man's laws. You are creating your own mitzvahs. You are a man. Thus...

You don't see that as hypocritical?
It is very easy to determine:

What is written

vs

What is said (oral)

You can find what is written in the torah and they are expounded on through the rest of scripture (applications, failures, judgments, yeshua giving proper intent, etc)

If you want to find oral you can look at talmud, catholic catechism, or any other book of man.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Same one. Their good news was the restoration of the kingdom, the beginning of the regathering of the exiles (spiritually first), and the freedom found in only written law with no man made additions. Nothing was ever stated as abolishing that which exiled them in the first place, that is just crazy talk.
The kingdom was NOT restored to Israel at that time, and we are saved by grace alone faith alone, as Paul and peter said that Gentiles were NOT obligation to be under the yoke of bondage of the Law, correct?
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
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You missed a verse in there Hank:

Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”

You think the only thing was not drink blood? What about murder, stealing, adultery? See,how that wouldn't make any sense.

They were commanded those 4 prohibitions (idolatry) and then they were able to enter the congregation (not circumcize and keep everything first). THEN they would learn the law of moses (torah) every sabbath at the synagogue. They don't have to enter through judaism, they enter through faith and grow into obedience.
Circumcision is required of all males once the decide to keep the Law and the Passover in particular.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Hebrew Roots Movement (Offshoot of Herbert Armstrong Cult who deny the Trinity and deny that Christ is fully human and fully God - God come in the flesh) people do a verbal tap dance around breaking the Torah laws they do not like, thereby doing the same thing they accuse us of doing.

Folks this is simple - read Acts 15 in it's entirety and see that we (those of us who are born of the Spirit) are not under the law.

We (those of us who are born again) are led of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Personally, the Spirit has never led me to do ANYTHING displeasing to the Lord.
That is not to say that I have never grieved Him by wandering.

HankD
 

Jason1

Member
The kingdom was NOT restored to Israel at that time, and we are saved by grace alone faith alone, as Paul and peter said that Gentiles were NOT obligation to be under the yoke of bondage of the Law, correct?
Right, we are not under the yoke of bondage (judaism oral law). We are to be under the law of freedom (pure written word):

Man's laws:

Mat 23:2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Mosheh.
Mat 23:3 “Therefore, whatever they say to you to guard, guard and do. But do not do according to their works, for they say, and do not do.
Mat_23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Written law:

Jas_1:25 But he that looked into the perfect Torah, that of freedom, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing of the Torah.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is very easy to determine:

What is written

vs

What is said (oral)

You can find what is written in the torah and they are expounded on through the rest of scripture (applications, failures, judgments, yeshua giving proper intent, etc)

If you want to find oral you can look at talmud, catholic catechism, or any other book of man.
Like the writings of the several Hebrew Roots Movement authors.

HankD
 

Jason1

Member
Circumcision is required of all males once the decide to keep the Law and the Passover in particular.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Hebrew Roots Movement (Offshoot of Herbert Armstrong Cult who deny the Trinity and deny that Christ is fully human and fully God - God come in the flesh) people do a verbal tap dance around breaking the Torah laws they do not like, thereby doing the same thing they accuse us of doing.

Folks this is simple - read Acts 15 in it's entirety and see that we (those of us who are born of the Spirit) are not under the law.

We (those of us who are born again) are led of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Personally, the Spirit has never led me to do ANYTHING displeasing to the Lord.
That is not to say that I have never grieved Him by wandering.

HankD
Circumcision is required for passover and temple worship. It is still a sign of the abrahamic covenant.

The spirit helps you keep the law (helper) and to guide you into all truth (torah). If you are not abiding in torah then either you don't have His spirit, or you have a different one.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Written law:

Jas_1:25 But he that looked into the perfect Torah, that of freedom, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing of the Torah.

Better do Brit Milah or you are doomed.

HankD
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Circumcision is required for passover and temple worship. It is still a sign of the abrahamic covenant.

It is the basis of the keeping of the Law even some leaders of the HRM agree.
The spirit helps you keep the law (helper) and to guide you into all truth (torah). If you are not abiding in torah then either you don't have His spirit, or you have a different one.
If that is what you believe then keep them all, every jot and title, pray for a miracle to do those that ended in AD70. Jesus said EVEN the least was to be kept. Now go do them - all 613.

When you fail, flee the wrath to come - flee to Jesus Christ God the son:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

HankD.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Right, we are not under the yoke of bondage (judaism oral law). We are to be under the law of freedom (pure written word):

Man's laws:

Mat 23:2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Mosheh.
Mat 23:3 “Therefore, whatever they say to you to guard, guard and do. But do not do according to their works, for they say, and do not do.
Mat_23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Written law:

Jas_1:25 But he that looked into the perfect Torah, that of freedom, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing of the Torah.
James was referring to us AFTER salvation, not as how to keep the law to get saved!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Circumcision is required for passover and temple worship. It is still a sign of the abrahamic covenant.

The spirit helps you keep the law (helper) and to guide you into all truth (torah). If you are not abiding in torah then either you don't have His spirit, or you have a different one.
Is the Spirit God? As He saves and indwells us based upon faith in Jesus, NOT upon keeping the Law!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is the basis of the keeping of the Law even some leaders of the HRM agree.

If that is what you believe then keep them all, every jot and title, pray for a miracle to do those that ended in AD70. Jesus said EVEN the least was to be kept. Now go do them - all 613.

When you fail, flee the wrath to come - flee to Jesus Christ God the son:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

HankD.
He is a Judaizer, and paul spoke to him in Galatians directly!
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is very easy to determine:

What is written

vs

What is said (oral)

You can find what is written in the torah and they are expounded on through the rest of scripture (applications, failures, judgments, yeshua giving proper intent, etc)

If you want to find oral you can look at talmud, catholic catechism, or any other book of man.
Yet you do not follow all that is in the Talmud. You have created your own mitzvahs regarding what you can obey and what you cannot obey. You have created your own human rules.
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Colossians 2:20-23
[20]You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,
[21]“Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?
[22]Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.
[23]These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Show me where in scripture that you must salt meat. Yes it can pull more blood out, and yes it does preserve meat, but there is no command for this. It is in how you drain it when you kill the animal.

Do you honestly think that every sacrifice at the temple was salted first? Hardly...

Hey, don't believe me, go see the Hasidic Jews as they know more than you about the issue than you do. You are trying to straddle the line between the old law and the new and you are failing miserably. Like others have said here, you are making up your own rules as you go along.

The following from the Jewish Encyclopedia concering salt contains some important information that you need to be aware of .
'Erub ('Er. iii. 1).

"The Rabbis recognized in salt different properties owing to which it is prominent in the ritual code. The most important one is its decomposing action on the blood; and therefore its use was recommended by the Rabbis for draining the blood from meat. Blood can not be thoroughly extracted from meat unless the latter is well salted (Ḥul. 113a). The laws for salting meat are given in sections 69-78 of the Shulḥan 'Aruk, Yoreh De'ah, some particulars of which may be here mentioned......

".......In other respects salting is like cooking (Ḥul. 97b); and therefore he who salts vegetables in the field makes them fit for the tithe (Ma'as. iv. 1). Salting food or vegetables is considered one of the principal labors which are forbidden on the Sabbath (Shab. 75b). To dissolve salt in water is also considered work; consequently one may not prepare a quantity of salt water on the Sabbath. Salt may not be pounded in a mortar on that day; but it may be crushed with the handle of a knife (Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 321, 2, 8)".

"The various ways in which salt was used in Hebrew cookery need not be enumerated here. Although the fact is not explicitly stated in the Old Testament, salt occupied the same place as in modern cookery; it was of course a most important necessary of life (comp. Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxix. 26; comp. Job vi. 6). Eating the salt of a man means, therefore, to derive one's sustenance from him, to take pay from him or to be hired by him (Ezra iv. 14; comp. "salarium" = "salt money," "salary"). Salt is considered pleasant and wholesome for animals also (Isa. xxx. 24); and the ancient Hebrews of course knew that food was preserved by salt. Taricheæ, on the Sea of Gennesaret, indicates by its name that, in later times at least, the preparation of salted fish, a staple article of commerce, was extensively carried on there".

And the following is really interesting:

"Thus, although it appears from Lev. ii. 13 that salt was required for meal-offerings only, the Rabbis concluded from a comparison between Num. l.c. and Num. xxv. 13 that, just as none of the sacrifices could be offered without priests, so they could not be offered without salt (Men. 19b-20a). The salt which belonged to the Temple for sacrificial purposes could be used by the priests when they ate their portion of the sacrifices, but not otherwise; this was one of the seven institutions of the bet din (Sheḳ. vii. 6; Maimonides, "Yad," Me'ilah, viii.). As, after the destruction of the Temple, the table set for a meal was considered as an altar, the Rabbis recommended that salt should be put upon it; nor should the blessing be recited without salt."

So I would say from that paragraph above that the sacrificial meats were indeed salted down in order to make them pure. NO BLOOD ALLOWED IN THE MEAT! NEVER!

So we can see, the Jews are right and you have no idea what you are talking about - and that is the end of the story!
 
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Jason1

Member
Colossians 2:20-23
[20]You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,
[21]“Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?
[22]Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.
[23]These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.
Notice it keeps saying "Of this world" = man's laws. It even says "human teachings".

How much clearer can it get?
 

Jason1

Member
Hey, don't believe me, go see the Hasidic Jews as they know more than you about the issue than you do. You are trying to straddle the line between the old law and the new and you are failing miserably. Like others have said here, you are making up your own rules as you go along.

The following from the Jewish Encyclopedia concering salt contains some important information that you need to be aware of .
'Erub ('Er. iii. 1).

"The Rabbis recognized in salt different properties owing to which it is prominent in the ritual code. The most important one is its decomposing action on the blood; and therefore its use was recommended by the Rabbis for draining the blood from meat. Blood can not be thoroughly extracted from meat unless the latter is well salted (Ḥul. 113a). The laws for salting meat are given in sections 69-78 of the Shulḥan 'Aruk, Yoreh De'ah, some particulars of which may be here mentioned......

".......In other respects salting is like cooking (Ḥul. 97b); and therefore he who salts vegetables in the field makes them fit for the tithe (Ma'as. iv. 1). Salting food or vegetables is considered one of the principal labors which are forbidden on the Sabbath (Shab. 75b). To dissolve salt in water is also considered work; consequently one may not prepare a quantity of salt water on the Sabbath. Salt may not be pounded in a mortar on that day; but it may be crushed with the handle of a knife (Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 321, 2, 8)".

"The various ways in which salt was used in Hebrew cookery need not be enumerated here. Although the fact is not explicitly stated in the Old Testament, salt occupied the same place as in modern cookery; it was of course a most important necessary of life (comp. Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxix. 26; comp. Job vi. 6). Eating the salt of a man means, therefore, to derive one's sustenance from him, to take pay from him or to be hired by him (Ezra iv. 14; comp. "salarium" = "salt money," "salary"). Salt is considered pleasant and wholesome for animals also (Isa. xxx. 24); and the ancient Hebrews of course knew that food was preserved by salt. Taricheæ, on the Sea of Gennesaret, indicates by its name that, in later times at least, the preparation of salted fish, a staple article of commerce, was extensively carried on there".

And the following is really interesting:

"Thus, although it appears from Lev. ii. 13 that salt was required for meal-offerings only, the Rabbis concluded from a comparison between Num. l.c. and Num. xxv. 13 that, just as none of the sacrifices could be offered without priests, so they could not be offered without salt (Men. 19b-20a). The salt which belonged to the Temple for sacrificial purposes could be used by the priests when they ate their portion of the sacrifices, but not otherwise; this was one of the seven institutions of the bet din (Sheḳ. vii. 6; Maimonides, "Yad," Me'ilah, viii.). As, after the destruction of the Temple, the table set for a meal was considered as an altar, the Rabbis recommended that salt should be put upon it; nor should the blessing be recited without salt."

So I would say from that paragraph above that the sacrificial meats were indeed salted down in order to make them pure. NO BLOOD ALLOWED IN THE MEAT! NEVER!

So we can see, the Jews are right and you have no idea what you are talking about - and that is the end of the story!
You can't come against me about oral law with oral law. That just isn't a good tactic, :p

What you fail to realize, is that the torah specifies every grain offering must be SEASONED with salt:

Lev_2:13 ‘And season with salt every offering of your grain offering, and do not allow the salt of the covenant of your Elohim to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you bring salt.​

Salting meat is not commanded, but seasoning the grain offerings is. You are also to include frankincense, but that doesn't mean you use it to pull out blood. Reading the written word clears up oral law confusion.
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Notice it keeps saying "Of this world" = man's laws. It even says "human teachings".

How much clearer can it get?
Yet you have created your human interpretation and cherry picked which laws you are going to follow. You are wanting to white wash your walls. Your method is very much like the people Paul refers to in Colossians.
You deny this, but every person on the board recognizes your struggle. It's why we pray for you.
 
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