Spiritual interpretation ....pt.7

[Martin Marprelate]

I was taking this to be the time when all eyes of theirs shall behold him , and mourn over him, and God will turn those jews still living unto Jesus!

Are you thinking of Zechariah 12:10ff? Or if not, of what text?

 

[Covenanter]

Are you thinking of Zechariah 12:10ff? Or if not, of what text?

That's Pentecost!

 

[Covenanter]

I was taking this to be the time when all eyes of theirs shall behold him , and mourn over him, and God will turn those jews still living unto Jesus!

As usual you don't give references.

Mat. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
.......
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth/land mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
........
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. ​

The same event is prophesied in Revelation:

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
......
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
........
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all [kindreds of the earth] tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

AD 70.

 

[Yeshua1]

God's people are reborn individually, by faith. John makes that very clear in his opening chapter, & Jesus underlines it in conversation with Nicodemus.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

Is Israel a nation or a people?
nation + Israel occurs in 13 verses, only 5 times in a positive sense.
people + Israel occurs in 270 verses.

God's favourite expression for his relationship with his covenant people is: I will be their God, and they shall be my people. It occurs many times in various forms throughout Scripture, including the chapter you referred to:

Eze. 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

and in Revelation 21:

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.​

The expression "my people" occurs in 217 verses.

The prophets foretold that Israel would be reborn and have messiah ruling over them, and God talking was to the Jewish peoples of the future...

 

[Yeshua1]

As usual you don't give references.

Mat. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
.......
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth/land mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
........
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. ​

The same event is prophesied in Revelation:

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
......
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
........
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all [kindreds of the earth] tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

AD 70.

Generation means Jewish race there, and that generation would be the last one alive when Second Coming happened!
There is NO historical account of the second coming happening AD 70!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That's Pentecost!

You might think that, and you might be quite right but I want to know what Y1 thinks.

 

[Yeshua1]

You might think that, and you might be quite right but I want to know what Y1 thinks.

I see it fulfilled unto the Church at Pentacost, and unto Israel at time of Second Coming, when they shall see Jesus, and mourn and receive Him as returning Messiah!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I see it fulfilled unto the Church at Pentacost, and unto Israel at time of Second Coming, when they shall see Jesus, and mourn and receive Him as returning Messiah!

So just to be absolutely clear, you see Zechariah 12:10 -13:9 as referring partly to Pentecost and partly to Israel at the time of the Second Coming? What makes you think that those verses refer to that time? Zech 14 certainly does, but why Zech 12 & 13?

 

[Yeshua1]

So just to be absolutely clear, you see Zechariah 12:10 -13:9 as referring partly to Pentecost and partly to Israel at the time of the Second Coming? What makes you think that those verses refer to that time? Zech 14 certainly does, but why Zech 12 & 13?

I tend to see salvation as being to the Jews as a main cayse/by product of the time leading up to the second coming, the time of Jacobs troubles///

 

[tyndale1946]

As usual you post without quoting any Scriptural basis for your opinion.

Those assertions come from old covenant prophecy, NOT new covenant prophecy, normally referring, in context, to the exile to Babylon & the return. e.g. Ezec. 36.

But note in that chapter vs 24-28 which is a prophecy of Pentecost when many thousands of Jews & proselytes devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Thousands were saved & baptised. The allusion to water baptism relates to Exo. 24 when the blood of the old covenant was sprinkled on the people on confession of obedience.

You agreed, a few posts back, that prophecy refers to Christ rather than Israel.

The coming, & saving work of Christ was in fulfilment of prophecy. At Pentecost, Peter declared "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" concerning the last days.

Many thousands of Jews from many nations did indeed repent & receive the blessing promised. There was no promise reserved for those who rejected the Messiah, only dreadful judgement.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.​

That judgment took place in AD 70.

The believing Jews reluctantly accepted Gentile believers as fellow believers. Acts 15. As they were rejected by the unbelieving Jewish community & Synagogues, their Jewish customs would soon lose significance, so in a generation or two the blessed & believing Jews would lose their Jewish identity. Not a Gentile church, but a Christian church where all were one.

Gal. 3: 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

Jews are welcomed by the Gospel, but not because they claim to be Abraham's seed, but because they come to Jesus in repentance & faith. And waiting for the Messiah is foolish. He came & completed his saving work.

Acts 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The emphasis is to the Prophet Joel and what he in prophecy declared as THE LAST DAYS... He didn't say a last days but THE... So my question is what are THE LAST DAYS in reference to?... I have my own thoughts on the matter what are yours and the literal or symbolic interpretations of the text?... If this has already been covered please continue (refer me to where it has been covered) if not can were expand and examine THE LAST DAYS?... Brother Glen

 

[percho]

Acts 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The emphasis is to the Prophet Joel and what he in prophecy declared as THE LAST DAYS... He didn't say a last days but THE... So my question is what are THE LAST DAYS in reference to?... I have my own thoughts on the matter what are yours and the literal or symbolic interpretations of the text?... If this has already been covered please continue (refer me to where it has been covered) if not can were expand and examine THE LAST DAYS?... Brother Glen

Do the last days have a beginning and an ending and how many days make up the last days? Consider Hebrews 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Did he begin to speak the Word of the LORD when he was about thirty years of age? However relative to the Spirit I think one would have to consider John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Another question that comes to my mind is; Was the glorification of Jesus relative to this statement from that same chapter of Acts? “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.“Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

I also fine it very interesting Joel 2:32 was cutoff mid verse in Acts 2.

Why, and is that relative to the Spirit being poured out on all flesh? Does all mean all?

I ask because God began calling from among the Jews and giving them the Holy Spirit, then Peter was sent to Cornelius a Gentile and his family receive the Holy Spirit Acts 15:8 Causing James to say V 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Take out of, not to take all or even to offer all but to take out of a people for his name and when on to say the scriptures would back that up.

Verse 16 does not remotely the Hebrew of Amos 9:11 I don't think and all the commentaries I have read say it nearly quotes. no quotes but nearly quotes the LXX of Amos 9:11. James was not giving Verse 15 as a scripture of fulfillment of verse 14. Verse 16 is what God does after taking out a people for his name. Jesus returns (to Jerusalem) and rebuilds the tabernacle of David which is fallen down. Why? I believe for the purpose of whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord. The balance of V 32 Joel 2 for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Why Verse 17 Acts 15 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Deliverance is in the Lord and the remnant, the ones his name is called.

they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him

IMHO That ain't taking place at this present time.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The emphasis is to the Prophet Joel and what he in prophecy declared as THE LAST DAYS... He didn't say a last days but THE... So my question is what are THE LAST DAYS in reference to?...

In my understanding, the Last Days are all the days between the first Coming of Christ and His second at the end of time.
However, this topic might be worthy of a new thread.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

???

So was this:

51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent;
52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. Mt 27

You and Martin have 70 AD on the brain.

The fact that the passage you referenced you was written before A.D.70, proves that it was a reality before then. It seems as if you are moving all the significance from the cross of Christ to A.D. 70. Do you not believe that the passage you referenced really happened? The reason this always comes back to A.D. 70 is because it is at the center of your hermeneutic. That is not my fault.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

"It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority"

When were you glorified?:

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8
.

But not presently glorified. Just like Christ is not presently reigning in his kingdom which has not yet been set up per Daniel the prophet.

 

[kyredneck]

The fact that the passage you referenced you was written before A.D.70, proves that it was a reality before then. It seems as if you are moving all the significance from the cross of Christ to A.D. 70. Do you not believe that the passage you referenced really happened? The reason this always comes back to A.D. 70 is because it is at the center of your hermeneutic. That is not my fault.

Hmm, either you're really confused and missed my point or you're intentionally misrepresenting me. Either way I'm done here for a while.

 

[kyredneck]

2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,

In my understanding, the Last Days are all the days between the first Coming of Christ and His second at the end of time.

According to the Song of Moses (Revelation 15:3;Deuteronomy 31 & 32) the 'latter days' were when the Jewish people had utterly corrupted themselves and great evil came upon them.

29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31

....and happened just as the Holy Spirit through Peter quoting the prophet Joel, and, that which The Prophet had foretold:

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

 

[Iconoclast]

According to the Song of Moses (Revelation 15:3;Deuteronomy 31 & 32) the 'latter days' were when the Jewish people had utterly corrupted themselves and great evil came upon them.

29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31

....and happened just as the Holy Spirit through Peter quoting the prophet Joel, and, that which The Prophet had foretold:

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

This passage in Luke must be accounted for, and yet it will be avoided as if it were not written in scripture. Dealing honestly with this passage directs and informs the discussion. Dispensational persons will do anything but face this passage.
Paul quotes from Deut.32:21....in Romans teaching this very thing that Luke has opened up.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

According to the Song of Moses (Revelation 15:3;Deuteronomy 31 & 32) the 'latter days' were when the Jewish people had utterly corrupted themselves and great evil came upon them.

29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31

....and happened just as the Holy Spirit through Peter quoting the prophet Joel, and, that which The Prophet had foretold:

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

All these things are (of course) true, but we know that the tribulations of the Jewish people neither began nor finished in AD 70. Luke 21:34 refers specifically to AD 70 because that was the subject the Lord was asked about (v.7).

The Bible, and Bible prophecy is not about AD70, it is about Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

The Bible, and Bible prophecy is not about AD70, it is about Christ.

It's dishonest of you to keep saying that for all others to read as if that's what I believe. YOU'RE the one with 70 AD on the brain, which is a smear tactic on your part.

 

[Iconoclast]

All these things are (of course) true, but we know that the tribulations of the Jewish people neither began nor finished in AD 70. Luke 21:34 refers specifically to AD 70 because that was the subject the Lord was asked about (v.7).

The Bible, and Bible prophecy is not about AD70, it is about Christ.

Well Martin everyone believes the scriptures are about Jesus.
Part of His work was judging the nation of Israel for their rebellion.
The gospel accounts include and focus on those judgments.
Why 70 ad is important to the discussion is much of the futurist view hinges on speculations based on these passages which in all likelihood were completely fulfilled with ongoing results.
The result is many hours and sermons in churches are misguided and fearful looking for the antichrist and one world government that premill spokesman Y1 indicates rather than seeing the gospel spread worldwide.