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Does God love the lost?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SheepWhisperer, Jul 20, 2017.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Correct
     
    #61 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 23, 2017
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”
     
    #62 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 23, 2017
  3. Cinnamon Apples

    Cinnamon Apples New Member

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    If God loves the lost, why does His word tell us this about the lost?

    John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
     
    #63 Cinnamon Apples, Jul 23, 2017
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is the response about Christ to the pharisees charge that he was demon possessed. Note the preconditions for God hearing a man - "if any BE worshipper of God, and doeth his will" but that is not the case with all natural born men is it ?- rom.3:9-12
     
    #64 The Biblicist, Jul 23, 2017
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  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Even the word Lost implies....Lost. Can't lose something folks insist you never had.

    Jesus Christ gives perfect example of capacity not rooted in religion--> GOOD SAMARITAN.

    Calvinist Jesus version of Sermon on the mount:
    "Hay guys.....God might love you or not, If yes, yay, if not.....well too bad. Have a great day! bye!"

    Christianity was a shock to everyone, a pagan megalomaniac would not work. Calvinist god is no better the Zues, Jupitor or any other meglomaniac God out there.



    John 12:48
    "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.


    It almost sounds like they were suppose to accept him and accept his sayings.



    The Calvinist prodigal son:

    14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs.
    16Then his daddy showed up shoved his finger up his son's control panel and ordered him to go back home.
    He then tied up his son in his camel pick-up and drove back home.
     
    #65 utilyan, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That's just what happened to me! :) Praise God for irresistible grace!

    Long my imprisoned spirit lay
    Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
    Thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
    I woke-- the dungeon flamed with light.
    My chains fell off, my heart was free!
    I rose, went forth and followed Thee.
     
    #66 Martin Marprelate, Jul 25, 2017
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think you are missing the point already made in John.

    It is not that God loves the lost by listening to and fulfilling their prayers but that God loves the lost by sending His Son that any of them who believe may have eternal life. John 3:16 tells us how God loves the lost (as do many other passages, including OT texts speaking of the world....that if they would only turn to Him they would be healed).
     
    #67 JonC, Jul 25, 2017
  8. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    When Adam sinned, his eyes were opened, and he knew "good and evil" Likewise, even lost people today, deep down, know what is good and what is evil. A god who would create some of mankind to burn in Hell for his "glory" wouldn't be any god I could trust. But that is no worry because that's not the God of the Bible. God's ultimate glory is earned and He earned it on the cross. And the fact that He, in His boundless love, died for every person in the whole world, is unwilling that any should perish, and draws all men, and is willing to save all men from Hell if they only obey His Voice and believe on His only begotten Son...that is the infinitely greater glory.
    The Bible says that God is righteous, but He is not "righteousness",the Bible says He just, but He is not "justice" The Bible says He is Holy, and good, but He is not "holiness" or "goodness": No the Bible says that God is love, my friends, and love is righteous and just and good and infinitely holy. Understand that, in the end, God will judge any of us who misrepresent Him too, because He is all powerful. The God of the Bible did not create a single human being for the purpose of denying them His salvation. No sir, men, for one reason or another, have chosen to distort and misrepresent his Holy Word. I do not understand why.

    Romans 1
    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
     
    #68 SheepWhisperer, Jul 25, 2017
  9. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Let me reiterate. The Bible says that Jesus loved the "rich young ruler" who "went away sorrowful because he had great possessions". Jesus wanted Jerusalem to be "gathered" to Him but they "would not". Jesus was the "Emanuel". The "I Am"...He was and is God Almighty. Jesus also said that we are to be like our Heavenly Father by "loving our enemies". That's the God of the Bible and He wants all, A L L, to come to Him and believe on His Son. Some still say "what about predestination and election"? Predestination has to do with God's design and plan to conform His children to the image of Christ. And election has to do with our service being God's purpose and design. Neither have to do with "predetermining" certain individuals to salvation. God knows who will be saved because He is God. But He has chosen to "draw all men" and to give the choice to come to Him or reject Him, to all of us.
     
    #69 SheepWhisperer, Jul 25, 2017
  10. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Every "lost" person believes God is evil. They are in rebellion. They view God as an evil dictator.
    Their concept of good and evil is corrupted by the idea that it is they, themselves, that define good and evil.
    You, yourself, do that exact thing when you declare in your self-righteousness:

    "A god who would create some of mankind to burn in Hell for his "glory" wouldn't be any god I could trust."

    You condemn God because he is not made in your image.

    You want your god to be unjust and have no concern with punishing law breakers. Your god, must submit to your wishes that all humans would be absolved of the evil they commit.

    Here's a news flash, goat whisperer, you are not a god. You are a sinful human who has broken the Sovereign God's laws. You are condemned by the law of God. Your just punishment is hell, which is exactly what the Bible (God's word) tells us.

    It amazes me how you arrogantly promote your false god.
     
    #70 MennoSota, Jul 25, 2017
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  11. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Oh no sir. I'm assured that I know the right Jesus. As I said in the post, the God of the Bible is just. He will send rejectors to Hell and He will judge those who misrepresent Him.
     
    #71 SheepWhisperer, Jul 25, 2017
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    All humans reject God. God must choose to save them. God makes the choice. You do not.
    All rejectors will go to Hell.
    Pray that God extends you grace or you too will spend eternity in hell.
     
    #72 MennoSota, Jul 25, 2017
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  13. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    God made the choice to offer His Son for the whole world (John 3:16). God made the choice to draw all men to Himself.(John 12:32) God made the choice to offer His free gift to all men(Romans 5:18) to give men a choice.(Deuteronomy 30:19) God has already extended me grace and I accepted it. No need to pray for my salvation; that happened over 31 years ago.
     
    #73 SheepWhisperer, Jul 25, 2017
  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    If you are right then your god is weak and flawed because he has failed miserably. I want nothing to do with your puny god.
     
    #74 MennoSota, Jul 25, 2017
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  15. Cinnamon Apples

    Cinnamon Apples New Member

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    Our souls are God breathed. We are made in the image and likeness of the Holy Spirit creator of all that exists. The Alpha & the Omega. (Isaiah 45:7)

    How can God not hear the prayers of sinners? And how can any living being given life by his will be separate from the source of all life in their beginning?
    If God does not hear the prayers of sinners, what then is the "Sinners Prayer" ?
     
    #75 Cinnamon Apples, Jul 25, 2017
  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    The sinner's prayer is a non-biblical incantation if it is performed as a means of getting something from God. Such an act is no different than the response of Simon the sorcerer who wanted the Holy Spirit for his own selfish reasons.
     
    #76 MennoSota, Jul 25, 2017
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are mistaking here, brother. The “sinners prayer” is no more an incantation than Calvinism is a rejection of legitimate evangelism. Both accusations creep up from time to time, and both have been correct on some occasions (some have taken the idea of calling out to God as a moment of salvation and then led godless lives, and some have taken Calvinistic doctrine to the extreme of neglecting the mandate to make disciples). But the worst case does not define the thing itself.

    I have been in churches that used the sinners prayer in a manner that was popular when I was growing up. Our churches (Southern Baptist) routinely used the “prayer” to explain the gospel message. When someone called out to God in repentance, that “calling out” is not what saved the person. For the “sinners prayer” to be such an “incantation” the church has to teach that a person needs to say this prayer to be saved. If you have been a member of such a church, then you have my sympathy because it has colored your perceptions of the intent of the prayer and other churches that use it.

    That said, I personally don’t like its use.
     
    #77 JonC, Jul 25, 2017
  18. Cinnamon Apples

    Cinnamon Apples New Member

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    I do know the SP is not Biblical. I would not go so far as to judge it as harshly as you do brother. However, my questions are a means to gain and expand understanding for myself and other sisters and brothers in Christ. :Inlove
     
    #78 Cinnamon Apples, Jul 25, 2017
  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Indeed, the local Southern Baptist church teaches such a fallacy. I am no longer a member at this particular church.
    I agree that the call for people to respond to God's Spirit often involves a prayer by the rebel in submission to the Sovereign King. Teaching a methodical prayer as the means of invoking God's grace is my concern.
     
    #79 MennoSota, Jul 25, 2017
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree that such a practice is wrong. My disagreement is lumping all of the churches who use the "sinners prayer" in with the erroneous SBC church that you attended. Your post seemed to criticize the "sinners prayer" rather than the churches who use the "prayer" to invoke a supernatural event (which is no different in principle than baptismal regeneration).

    That said, just because some hold to baptismal regeneration doesn't mean we are not to baptize people. I'm not saying that the "sinners prayer" is a requirement, but I also have experience with the "prayer'. Throughout my life (so far, I'm not done yet) I've attended several churches and until the last decade most used the "sinners prayer". None that I have attended used the prayer as an incantation.

    The reason I lean against using the "sinners prayer" has nothing to do with the idea that it invokes salvation, or that one is saved by praying the prayer (because I've never encountered a church that taught such things). The reason I lean against it is that it seems to provide a closure in the minds of some ("I've repented and believe, I'm good, and that's that" type of thing). It can be a summary of the gospel message when a fuller explanation and examination is warranted.
     
    #80 JonC, Jul 25, 2017
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