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God controls quite a lot or God controls all?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Right.
    This means that God is Sovereign over every detail of our lives. A branch on a tree does not fall except by God's ordained decree.
    A person does not receive faith except by God's ordained decree.
    Shall I go on?
     
    #41 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Those verses do not speak to God's sovereign direction over all areas of our life. Certainly God is Counselor and Helper. This happens by His ordained will and decree...does it not ?
     
    #42 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  3. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    A thinking atheist would argue that all things are determined/predestined by nature. There is nothing that is random. Even the mutations are set by nature itself.
    The difference of course is that the atheists nature is an unintelligent force in time and space. The God of Christianity is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent who has a good and perfect reason for all events within time, but exists outside of time and space.
     
    #43 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
  4. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I may duck out, as the goalposts are moving too fast for me to keep up.

    Edited to add: Just went back to reading Frame's Salvation Belongs to the Lord after a break, and the first thing I see is the use of "govern."
     
    #44 Rob_BW, Aug 7, 2017
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  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Not only do you know what Arminians think and believe, even creating dialogue for them, but you also know what atheists think and believe. Impressive.

    All true. My point was the statement about man not controlling their parents, birthdate, birthplace, etc. is true no matter what anyone believes. The individual does not control that. I doubt anyone would argue otherwise. So using that as an argument for the sovereignty of God is not an effective debate tactic. It is akin to stating, "the earth is round, therefore God is sovereign."
     
    #45 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No your tail is between your legs.

    ANSWER THE QUESTION.

    Does God WANT YOU TO SIN? Does he really really want you to ever sin again?

    There is no FAKE wants and FAKE desires. God is not a deceptive idiot chimp.

    Does God want you to sin? Yes or No?
     
    #46 utilyan, Aug 7, 2017
  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Amen,

    Matthew 12
    37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    Does God WANT YOU TO SIN? You always blame "sin nature" or a "God willed sin". Does God want anyone to sin. Show us that is what he wants.

    Tell us how you don't sin anymore. Or is God sovereignty so weak he can't get things exactly as he desires?
     
    #47 utilyan, Aug 7, 2017
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  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Give me a break. Duck out because you have nothing to say. This thread has always been about defining God's sovereignty and control over his creation. Speak to it or leave, but don't lie about goalposts moving.
     
    #48 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  9. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    No sir, "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps". means that a man decides the path he will take, but God holds the consequences.
     
    #49 SheepWhisperer, Aug 7, 2017
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  10. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    The question has been answered, just not exactly as your devious little mind wants it to be answered. I won't be a part of your jesters court, utilyan.
     
    #50 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, please explain why Jesus marveled that He had "found faith" in the centurion if He was the one that had given it to the centurion. (Matthew 8:10 Luke 7:9)
     
    #51 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
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  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The problem as I understand it, is men try to think like God whereas God never thinks like sinful men, which we all are... Then I remember these verses that say it all, and leave it all in Gods hands especially verses 8, 9 & 11... Brother Glen:)

    55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

    55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
     
    #52 tyndale1946, Aug 7, 2017
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    1 Timothy 1
    [14]Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus.

    Notice that Paul tells us that God filled Paul with faith and love.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us that God gives, those whom he makes alive, faith and that faith comes not from ones self lest you should boast.

    Scripture tells a different story than you do.
     
    #53 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  14. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I thought we were talking about the suitability of words like control and manage and rule to describe God, and if using one of these words to describe one aspect cancels out any other.

    Since you declined to answer my post, and moved on to discussing ordain and decree, I saw no reason to continue.
     
    #54 Rob_BW, Aug 7, 2017
  15. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Salvation had come through the Jews. God had given faith to a gentile. Isn't that something to marvel in?
    Note that Jesus was not blindsided by the man's faith. He was not unaware. Jesus was joyfilled! Why wouldn't God be joyfilled when a person exercises the faith that God had graciously given?
     
    #55 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Indeed. All the dialogue of Job and his friends is an attempt by men to think like God and define God's sovereign actions.
     
    #56 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The Bible says that Jesus "FOUND FAITH" in the centurion. You can't just brush that aside because you want to.


    I never said he was surprised by it. I said that Jesus "marveled".
     
    #57 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, and here Paul tells Timothy that the Holy Scriptures were the cause of his faith in Christ

    ...and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:15
     
    #58 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Of course Jesus found faith in the centurion. God had given it to him. What are you missing about God giving the gift of faith?
     
    #59 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  20. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Nothing. A plain reading of the scripture shows that Jesus found faith in the centurion, not that he gave it to him.
     
    #60 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
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