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God controls quite a lot or God controls all?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    The Holy scripture makes Timothy wise for salvation. The scriptures didn't save Timothy. They were not the cause. They are one means by which God reveals his salvation. God is the cause agent.
     
    #61 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    The rest of scripture clarifies for us how the centurion had faith in the first place. I have pointed out verses for you. Do you imagine the story of the centurion stands alone?
     
    #62 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  3. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Sir, how did the centurion get two hands in the first place? Likewise, how did you get two hands? Have you used them for both good and evil? Of course God also gave you the capacity for faith like he gave you everything else. He even gave HITLER capacity for faith but Hitler chose to put his faith in death instead of life. God does not force a person to believe. Watch this::: Jesus "marveled" at the centurion's faith that he "found".
     
    #63 SheepWhisperer, Aug 7, 2017
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  4. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    No one has the capacity to generate saving faith on their own. The Bible clearly shows you to be wrong no matter how much you push your agenda.
    The only capacity a "dead in trespasses and sins" person has is the capacity to choose hell.
    As I have noted, in both 1 Timothy and Ephesians, faith is a gift given by God to those he elects to save.
    Your assertion about Hitler is just your imagination creating a false assertion.
    As to the centurion. The NIV reads as follows:
    "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith."
    NLT
    "I tell you the truth, I haven't seen faith like this in all Israel."
    ESV
    "Truly, I tell you, no one in Israel have I found with such faith."

    Not once do you read that the centurion conjured up his own faith to the point that it took Jesus, God, off guard and by surprise. For you to imply that from this verse is just sheer stupidity on your part. It shocks me that you and Rob try to build a strawman from this verse. You should be ashamed of such horrible exegesis and apologize for butchering God's word for your own agenda.
     
    #64 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  5. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Imply? Sorry man, I don't use the "NIV". I only use the King James.

    Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    I never said it took him "off guard, by surprise" and never said the man "conjured up" anything. I said God gives everyone capacity for faith.
     
    #65 SheepWhisperer, Aug 7, 2017
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  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, then you use a poor translation into English and limit yourself. That's your choice and problem, not mine. I find the KJV only crew to be a kooky group. If I offend you and others with this comment, it doesn't bother me.

    That being said, the KJV still supports my position while yours is just a strawman created by your imagination.

    I showed you scripture that clearly refutes your assertion that God gives all people the capacity to have faith.
    Faith is a gift given only to those whom God makes alive in Christ Jesus. Dead people have no capacity to have faith. It's impossible.
     
    #66 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    You are such a friendly fellow. You remind me of the fellow in the Bible who thanked God he was not like that old tax collector.
     
    #67 Reynolds, Aug 7, 2017
  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, do you have anything on topic or just a distraction?
     
    #68 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    You turn total depravity and irresistible grace into a pattern of circular logic.
     
    #69 Reynolds, Aug 7, 2017
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  10. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    That's on topic. The point I have made over and over is you drag personal insult into your discussions.
     
    #70 Reynolds, Aug 7, 2017
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  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    You've done no such thing. Not in this thread. Not anywhere.

    You've shown one verse that says Paul's faith was from God. No kidding. Jesus struck him blind and audibly talked to him on the road to Damascus. That's an extraordinary event that all other people since Paul have not experienced.

    You claim Ephesians 2:8-9 state that faith is the gift from God. Wrong. Salvation is the gift through God's grace by faith; we don't get the gift of salvation by good works--"not of yourself".

    You have not addressed 2 Timothy 3:15 which states we get faith through the scriptures.

    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
     
    #71 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
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  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    I present what God shares in the Bible. If that's circular logic to you, then take it up with God for sharing it with humanity.
     
    #72 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, you are distracting from the topic. If you have something to share regarding God’s sovereignty t hen share it.
     
    #73 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You are abusing scripture to force your agenda.

    2 Timothy 3
    [15]You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.

    Nowhere does it say we get faith through the scriptures. You have mangled the verse to make it say something it doesn't say. Meanwhile you deny the two passages I shared, which directly address the issue of where faith comes from.
     
    #74 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    No, you are. To wit:


    I've "mangled" the verse? The truth is that you cherry-picked a translation that doesn't use the word faith. Looks like you picked the NLT. That's how far you will go to make your theology fit. That's how dishonest you are.

    Here's what other translations say:

    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [KJV]

    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [NJKV]

    15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [ESV]

    15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [NIV]

    15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [NASB]

    15 and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [HCSB]

    15 and you know that from infancy you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [CSB]

    There’s nothing like the written Word of God for showing you the way to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [The Message even says 'faith'(!)]


    Didn't deny them in the least. The verse about Paul was a one-time extraordinary event--Paul got his faith directly from Jesus when he was struck down on the road to Damascus. That doesn't happen to very many people. John the Baptist was another person that had faith given directly to him by God.

    You are misinterpreting the verse in Ephesians. The gift of God is salvation, not faith.
     
    #75 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
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  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    No one is saying that.

    No one is saying that.

    You're the one building strawmen to pick up the goalposts and move them to another ballpark.

    Is that monocle on your avatar image a mirror so you can look in it whenever you say stuff like this?
     
    #76 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
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  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Nope

    ἀκούσας δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐθαύμασεν καὶ εἶπεν τοῖς ἀκολουθοῦσιν Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, παρ’ οὐδενὶ τοσαύτην πίστιν ἐν τῷ Ἰσραὴλ εὗρον.



    ἐθαύμασεν


    ethaumasen


    2296 thaumázō (from 2295 /thaúma, "a wonder, marvel") – properly, wonder at, be amazed (marvel), i.e. astonished out of one's senses; awestruck, "wondering very greatly" (Souter); to cause "wonder; . . . to regard with amazement, and with a suggestion of beginning to speculate on the matter" (WS, 225).


    Pick your poison brother, If it doesn't mean what majority already holds it to mean, what do you say that word means?
     
    #77 utilyan, Aug 7, 2017
  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Not one of those translations support your contention about the scriptures generating faith.

    Scripture repeatedly says that God gives faith. We don't manufacture faith by our own means.

    God may use scripture to open our eyes and make us alive in Christ, but faith comes after God has done His work in making us alive.

    Why would anyone argue for a man-centered means of salvation and claim that faith comes from the human will?

    I use the NLT because it's easy to copy and paste from my phone. No other reason.
     
    #78 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
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  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, nice copy and paste.
     
    #79 MennoSota, Aug 7, 2017
  20. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    You've shown one example, specific to the apostle Paul and you've misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8-9 in an attempt to show another. Besides these dubious examples, please show the other examples that you contend scripture "repeatedly says".

    You better ask this phantom person that you continually allege says this, because I'm not claiming that.

    Sure. What makes that html text more special than another bit of html text?
     
    #80 InTheLight, Aug 7, 2017
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