God controls quite a lot or God controls all?

[SovereignGrace]

so, according to that logic, if a serial killer decides to do his thing this aftenoon, it was ordained by God?

Was Babylon taking Israel into captivity an ordained act of God?

Was Assyria being stirred up to battle Israel an ordained act of God?

Was Nebachudnezzar's insanity an ordained act of God?

Was the Christ's crucifixion an ordained act of God?

Even when ppl do wicked deeds, in ways only He knows, are ordained by Him.

All He has to do was stop it, but He doesn't.

 

[Iconoclast]

so, according to that logic, if a serial killer decides to do his thing this aftenoon, it was ordained by God?

God’s knowledge of the future is as complete as is His knowledge of the past and the present, and that, because the future depends entirely upon Himself. Were it in anywise possible for something to occur apart from either the direct agency or permission of God, then that something would be independent of Him, and He would at once cease to be Supreme.
AW.Pink

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Could God had stopped him at any time? Yes, but why did he allow him to do that sinful act, is that the question?

No sir. my question was in response to this.........

That is by God's good and perfect ordination if that happens.
Either God is in absolute control of his creation or God has lost control of parts or all of it.
The Bible says God is in complete control. I believe the Bible even if my frail little mind can't see it with my eyes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God’s knowledge of the future is as complete as is His knowledge of the past and the present, and that, because the future depends entirely upon Himself. Were it in anywise possible for something to occur apart from either the direct agency or permission of God, then that something would be independent of Him, and He would at once cease to be Supreme.
AW.Pink

Another excerpt from "The Attributes of God". Kudos!!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Was Babylon taking Israel into captivity an ordained act of God?

Was Assyria being stirred up to battle Israel an ordained act of God?

Was Nebachudnezzar's insanity an ordained act of God?

Was the Christ's crucifixion an ordained act of God?

Even when ppl do wicked deeds, in ways only He knows, are ordained by Him.

All He has to do was stop it, but He doesn't.

That's a where you are wrong. So, I will quote a verse I have already shown you guys more than once in these threads........
Read it this time.......
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. The Kings of Babylon and Assyria "devised" in their own hearts to do evil things, God allowed it and God controlled what did or did not get done. He allowed them to conquer Israel and Judah. Now watch this: God then judged both Babylon and Assyria for doing it! Why? Because it was all their wicked intent.. Babylon was then conquered by Persia, Persia, conquered by Greece, Greece conquered by Rome. We all reap what we sow because it was OUR intent. Yes, God allows serial killers to do what they do too. But it is their wicked hearts that "devise their way". God judges all in the end. None will escape His wrath.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

God’s knowledge of the future is as complete as is His knowledge of the past and the present, and that, because the future depends entirely upon Himself. Were it in anywise possible for something to occur apart from either the direct agency or permission of God, then that something would be independent of Him, and He would at once cease to be Supreme.
AW.Pink

No, I'm not talking about whether something "occurs" or not. read what I said again please..........

SheepWhisperer said: ↑
so, according to that logic, if a serial killer decides to do his thing this aftenoon, it was ordained by God?

Proverbs 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way............" God does not control what we "devise" in our hearts....

 

[MennoSota]

That's a where you are wrong. So, I will quote a verse I have already shown you guys more than once in these threads........
Read it this time.......
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. The Kings of Babylon and Assyria "devised" in their own hearts to do evil things, God allowed it and God controlled what did or did not get done. He allowed them to conquer Israel and Judah. Now watch this: God then judged both Babylon and Assyria for doing it! Why? Because it was all their wicked intent.. Babylon was then conquered by Persia, Persia, conquered by Greece, Greece conquered by Rome. We all reap what we sow because it was OUR intent. Yes, God allows serial killers to do what they do too. But it is their wicked hearts that "devise their way". God judges all in the end. None will escape His wrath.

Habakkuk 1:5-11 proves your opinion wrong. Read it and tell us where you find anyone but God choosing to raise up the Babylonians. P.S. I even quote the KJV to feed your fetish so you can see that even King James disagrees with you.

Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's.
7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
10 And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.
11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.

 

[Iconoclast]

Another excerpt from "The Attributes of God". Kudos!!

I posted several early in the thread, but I do not think everyone is reading them.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, I'm not talking about whether something "occurs" or not. read what I said again please..........


Proverbs 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way............" God does not control what we "devise" in our hearts....

Do not switch it...if it OCCURS... it was ordained to OCCUR...I did not say anything about who devised anything.

 

[Reynolds]

Ordained by God.

His omniscience and omnipotence is over all things. When I get food poisoning from bad food, it happens by God's good and perfect ordination. Not one thing, good or bad, happens except by God's w

Job declares: "Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?"

If it happens, if it comes to pass,it was ordained to come to pass

God ordained Adam to sin, yet God explicitly told him not to sin?
If God "ordains" our sins, why does He hold us responsible for doing what He ordained for us to do? He tells us not to do it, but "ordained" that we do it?
To me, that's loonier than some of the looniest stuff you see in some of the worst Pentecostal churches.

 

[MennoSota]

God ordained Adam to sin, yet God explicitly told him not to sin?
If God "ordains" our sins, why does He hold us responsible for doing what He ordained for us to do? He tells us not to do it, but "ordained" that we do it?
To me, that's loonier than some of the looniest stuff you see in some of the worst Pentecostal churches.

God ordains all thing for good and for His glory. God does not make anyone do something. Our corrupt nature is such that even our rebellion is ordained by God to bring about His glory.
With all that being said, we have to take God's word as truth, even when we cannot comprehend how God accomplishes His ordained good through evil.
Paul discusses this in Romans 9. When he talks about God making a vessel bound for destruction and then asks how we as humans cannot question God.

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Do not switch it...if it OCCURS... it was ordained to OCCUR...I did not say anything about who devised anything.

You're the one who "switched" bro.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's a where you are wrong. So, I will quote a verse I have already shown you guys more than once in these threads........

Again, who stirred up the Assyrian King's heart to fight against His own ppl? But they acted treacherously against the God of their fathers and played the harlot after the gods of the peoples of the land, whom God had destroyed before them. So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul, king of Assyria, even the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away into exile, namely the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh, and brought them to Halah, Habor, Hara and to the river of Gozan, to this day.[1 Chronicles 5:25-26] It was after His ppl became idolators, God stirred up Israel's enemies and used them to punish His own ppl.

All of these warnings are when Israel would not obey Him...

The Lord shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. Your carcasses will be food to all birds of the sky and to the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away.[Deuteronomy 28:25-26]

You shall betroth a wife, but another man will violate her; you shall build a house, but you will not live in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but you will not use its fruit.[Deuteronomy 28:30]

The Lord will strike you on the knees and legs with sore boils, from which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.[Deuteronomy 28:35]

The Lord will bring you and your king, whom you set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone. You shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people where the Lord drives you.[Deuteronomy 28:36-37]

therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.[Deuteronomy 28:48]

Completely destroys your 'view' of God.

Read it this time.......
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. The Kings of Babylon and Assyria "devised" in their own hearts to do evil things, God allowed it and God controlled what did or did not get done. He allowed them to conquer Israel and Judah. Now watch this: God then judged both Babylon and Assyria for doing it! Why? Because it was all their wicked intent.. Babylon was then conquered by Persia, Persia, conquered by Greece, Greece conquered by Rome. We all reap what we sow because it was OUR intent. Yes, God allows serial killers to do what they do too. But it is their wicked hearts that "devise their way". God judges all in the end. None will escape His wrath.

Nope. God was active in the Kings of Babylon and Assyria as He moved them to overtake Israel due to their continual rebellion. God does not take sin lightly.

Neither does He take lightly ppl blaspheming His name.

This anemic 'god' you guys continually post about is not found ANYWHERE in the bible. He does not bow to this mythical man's free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

God ordained Adam to sin, yet God explicitly told him not to sin?
If God "ordains" our sins, why does He hold us responsible for doing what He ordained for us to do? He tells us not to do it, but "ordained" that we do it?
To me, that's loonier than some of the looniest stuff you see in some of the worst Pentecostal churches.

Why do you change the wording?
I did not say God ordained them to "do it".if you read what I posted you will discover I posted ordained it to come to pass.
Did you listen to the sermons I posted the other day?
It seems as if you have not gotten around to it.

 

[Reynolds]

God ordains all thing for good and for His glory. God does not make anyone do something. Our corrupt nature is such that even our rebellion is ordained by God to bring about His glory.
With all that being said, we have to take God's word as truth, even when we cannot comprehend how God accomplishes His ordained good through evil.
Paul discusses this in Romans 9. When he talks about God making a vessel bound for destruction and then asks how we as humans cannot question God.

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

Can you define to me exactly what you mean by "ordain"? I think we must be using different definitions.

 

[Reynolds]

Why do you change the wording?
I did not say God ordained them to "do it".if you read what I posted you will discover I posted ordained it to come to pass.
Did you listen to the sermons I posted the other day?
It seems as if you have not gotten around to it.

Word games. Ordained to do or ordained to happen; no practical difference.

 

[InTheLight]

Word games. Ordained to do or ordained to happen; no practical difference.

You're catching on to the Calvinist word games. Get ready for a long dissertation on the difference between "decree" and "ordain" as well as "decretive will" and "permissive will". Honestly, you will need a flow chart to keep up.

Just another in a long line of Calvinist redefinitions. You know, where "the world" actually means "the elect". Where "whosoever" means "the elect". "All" = "the elect."

Where "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" was addressed to the elect.

Where "faith" is a gift that God gives you after he gives you the gift of regeneration, which you couldn't have resisted anyway.
Where "faith" is a work that brings pride to the Arminian.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Again, who stirred up the Assyrian King's heart to fight against His own ppl? But they acted treacherously against the God of their fathers and played the harlot after the gods of the peoples of the land, whom God had destroyed before them. So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul, king of Assyria, even the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away into exile, namely the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh, and brought them to Halah, Habor, Hara and to the river of Gozan, to this day.[1 Chronicles 5:25-26] It was after His ppl became idolators, God stirred up Israel's enemies and used them to punish His own ppl.

All of these warnings are when Israel would not obey Him...

The Lord shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. Your carcasses will be food to all birds of the sky and to the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away.[Deuteronomy 28:25-26]

You shall betroth a wife, but another man will violate her; you shall build a house, but you will not live in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but you will not use its fruit.[Deuteronomy 28:30]

The Lord will strike you on the knees and legs with sore boils, from which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.[Deuteronomy 28:35]

The Lord will bring you and your king, whom you set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone. You shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people where the Lord drives you.[Deuteronomy 28:36-37]

therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.[Deuteronomy 28:48]

Completely destroys your 'view' of God.



Nope. God was active in the Kings of Babylon and Assyria as He moved them to overtake Israel due to their continual rebellion. God does not take sin lightly.

Neither does He take lightly ppl blaspheming His name.

This anemic 'god' you guys continually post about is not found ANYWHERE in the bible. He does not bow to this mythical man's free will.

Well, I have to admit; you did just stir me up and whenever that happens I always run to the Word of God.........2Pe 3:1
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
Did Peter get inside their heads and make them remember? or make them do anything at all? Of course not. God does not "devise your way" or mine. He "stirs us up" in various ways but He lets us make up our own minds as to what our intentions are.
I will reiterate. The Holy Spirit, the "Comforter" deals with men's hearts about "sin, righteousness, and judgement". In other words; you're a lowdown, hateful, vile and wicked sinner, and the finished work of God's perfect, Holy, sinless, spotless and loving Son on Calvary is your only hope of escaping Hell for all eternity. That's what He did with Felix and Felix was so shook up he "trembled" the Bible says, but Felix chose to "put it off". It's as plain as day in God's word, sir. And my God WILL put everyone who rejects His only begotten Son in Hell. Does that still sound "anemic" to you? God is Love, sir, and He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Just believe on His Son: that's all He asks, or suffer the consequences.

 

[TCassidy]

"decretive will" and "permissive will".

If you don't understand the difference you are not qualified to participate in this discussion.

 

[Yeshua1]

No sir. my question was in response to this.........

When the Jack the Ripper does his sin, is that caused by God or not?