Response to [member's names not allowed in thread title] on Partial Preterism

It is not helpful to misquote your sources. The Irenaeus quote is ambiguous, as you will find in any on-line consideration of the date of Revelation:

“We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision.

For [it or he] was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”​

See e.g. "Irenaeus on the book of Revelation.

The other, later references you give are not inspired. And they do not prove a late date for the writing of Revelation, only details of John's later life. I work on the inspired evidence of Scripture.

 

The verse that calls J "Sodom and Egypt" is Rev. 11:8. NOWHERE does that chapter say Jerusalem shall be destroyed again! It DOES say that after God's two special witnesses are slain and resurrected, there'll be a great earthquake that'll level 1/10 of the city.

You prets have created quite a conundrum for yourselves. While you correctly say Jesus' prophecies shall cometa pass exactly as written, you simply CANNOT fill in the gaps between pret pronouncements & actual history! You keep trying to define certain other events as fulfillments of His prophecies, while seeing for yourselves that Jesus' prophecies that HAVE already cometa pass have been fulfilled LITERALLY AND EXACTLY. You simply CANNOT ACCOUNT for the "beast/antichrist", his deputy the miracle-working false prophet, the "marka the beast", the great trib, and, most of all, the GLORIOUS RETURN OF JESUS in great power & glory, as He Himself said, SEEN BY ALL, with His coming in like manner as He departed for heaven.

***PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!"""

There's PLENTY of doubt!

Dr. Cassidy was kind enough to quote some of the early "church fathers" who lived close to John's time & undoubtedly had greater knowledge of the time of Revelation's presenting than we do now. Over the years, Dr. Cassidy has shown great knowledge of church history & world history in general. I doubt your "historical knowledge" holds a candle to his!

Again, Sir, I suggest you examine your "take" of Jesus' prophecies. History and reality have proven you & other prets TOTALLY-WRONG on the past occurrence of the prophesied eschatological events! Obviously, your sources of Scripture "interp" are WRONG!

 

OK, then, Sir, SHOW US THE MONEY!
Please show us the two 'beasts' of Rev. 13 have come & gone, that the great trib & marka the beast have come & gone, etc.

And remember what JESUS said about the timing of His return:

Matt. 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are the words of JESUS HIMSELF. There's NO doubt about the meaning of the Greek here rendered "immediately after". As Jesus is always 100% correct, then if the beast, trib, etc. have already happened, Jesus shoulda returned by now!

The TRUTH is, preterism is simply FALSE!

Do you know what the "powers of the heavens" are? they're the apparent courses thru the sky the celestial bodies follow. They haven't been noticeably changed since the time of Hezekiah, 700s BC, when the sun temporarily reversed its course at Isaiah's prayer.

 

I cannot prove they've already happened, but I believe the words of our Lord Jesus. The questions I have to answer is:
"In what way did all these things happen?"
"Was there a sense in which the Lord did come, veiled by clouds?"

We can see in the OT judgments similar terminology. e.g. Isaiah 13 During the Exodus the LORD made his presence known as he led his people by the pillar of cloud, & in the cloud that filled the tabernacle. See also Jeremiah 4:11-13

Jesus made his prophecy very explicit so that the Jerusalem & Jerusalem Christians would know when to flee the city. As I think you agree.

​

We are in substantial agreement there.

Jesus carefully explained that the happenings he was warning about in Matthew 24:4-14 were not signs of the destruction, but would happen until the end. The fact that they are happening today is not of prophetic significance - just as it wasn't in the Apostles' time.

Matthew 24:15-34 then specifically relates to the destruction.

If you insist on literal fulfilment of Mathew 24:27-31 then note that they will happen Immediately after the tribulation of those days. I think it is necessary to consider the destruction as being the subject of these verses up to 34.

Jesus continues from verse 35 to separate his final coming for the passing of heaven & earth from his coming for the destruction. And he gave no warning signs for the passing of heaven & earth - just watch & pray & live in readiness for that coming.

Again I would agree.

World ruler or local ruler? Now you are in Revelation rather than the Olivet prophecy. Christians continued in Jerusalem until they saw the signs & fled. There were some evil rulers in Jerusalem - they may be named in uninspired references.

The tribulation the Jews suffered at the destruction was the final & complete judgment on the generation that rejected its Messiah. I'll take Jesus' word on that. The Romans had their balistas to rain rocks on the city.

Not yet - that's the great next event on the prophecy calendar.

I've never read any of those writings. I get my theology from the BIBLE.

 

The Megatropis, the great city, Rome. Jesus was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem, but in the greater metropolis, Rome. They came under their king. "We have no king but Caesar."

 

How can that happen when the pope is Antichrist?

If the saints will be raised on the last day, how can there be any days after that? There can be no days before the first day in Genesis, so there can be no days after the last day, John 6:39-54. John 11:24. It is also the Day of Judgment, John 12:44.

 

Another attempt at trying to fill in a gap between preterist pronouncements and REALITY. Those events simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED. there's NO escaping that FACT.

Those same people also saw other great miracles of God, such as their crossing the Reed Sea.(the correct name of the body of water they crossed) remember, many of them didn't know who God was before the Exodus.

But many preterists still try to say the eschatological prophecies were fulfilled during the "days of vengeance".

​

Good. We're getting somewhere.

but they show LITERAL, TO-THE-LETTER fulfillment of His prophecies.

A destruction which hasn't yet happened. Remember, when Vespasian first attacked Jerusalem, his army surrounded it, but then, it left with him to help make him Caesar. Vespasian's son Titus returned with an army months later. There was plenty of time for believers to escape Jerusalem between the invasions; they were not required to escape in a matter of hours to avoid death. And the "abomination of desolation" was NOT committed by Titus, who was the only "prince of the people that shall destroy jerusalem" then present. Remember what the AOD is - the antichrist shall enter the temple with his deputy the false prophet to set up the AC's statue in the temple, which the FP shall supernaturally make speak, as the AC declares himself to be God. THAT HAS NOT YET HAPPENED!

But Jesus SPECIFICALLY WARNED against believing anyone who says he has already returned, as there'd be NO MISTAKING His return for anything else! The WHOLE WORLD will see His return!

Jesus' "fig tree" analogy tells us we can know when His return is very near by the "signs of the time". Some of those signs have indeed come to pass in our day, such as the establishment of the Jewish nation with Jerusalem as its capital, the "great falling-away", with the world's acceptance of homosexuality & many "worship services" being more of a party with music & feasts.

Again, GOOD. I still hope we're getting somewhere.

ALL the eschatological prophecies are inter-linked, both Old and New Testament. And Rev. 13 makes it plain the antichrist will be a WORLD ruler. NO Roman ruler had a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy. NO Roman ruler entered the temple in J & declared himself God, nor set up a talking statue in it. There has not been any "mark of the beast". AND JESUS CERTAINLY HAS NOT RETURNED IN THE MANNER HE HIMSELF SAYS HE WILL!

Those were the "days of vengeance". And another fact that kills the "that generation" theory is that the Jews suffered a far-greater devastation in 135-136 AD when Hadrian crushed the Bar Kokhba revolt and outlawed all Jewish worship & customs, with many Jews being killed and many more being made slaves, used for gladiator practice, etc. and having all their land and property confiscated. In Titus' destruction of J & the temple, many other Jews in other cities were not molested at all, while in Hadrian's time, all Jews in the Roman empire were at least persecuted & deprived of their land & property.

Neither of those events were the great trib, which will be WORLDWIDE.

No, next will be the coming of the antichrist. Remember 2 Thess. 2.

Then know ye that JESUS' PROPHECIES ARE LITERAL! they've been LITERALLY fulfilled up to now, and they'll continue to be so.

The eschatological events beginning with the coming of the "beast" simply HAVE NOT YET BEEN FULFILLED, & there's NO getting by that big ole bear of a FACT!

That fact alone renders all preterism false. While you say you get your theology from the Bible, you get your INTERPRETATION of the Bible from some groddy, false outside source; otherwise you wouldn't believe that preterist nonsense. There's PLENTY of prophecy yet to be fulfilled, and that's another inescapable FACT! I hope the HOLY SPIRIT opens your eyes to the falsehood of the preterist myth!

 

Actually they escaped before that when they saw Cestius' armies surrounding Jerusalem, and he retired from his attack on Jerusalem, just as he was on the verge of victory and the Jews were about to open the gates to let him in. Josephus said he retreated "without a reason in the world," Remember it was when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies that they were to leave. Matt and Mark say this was the AOD,

Not a word of his can be found in scripture. Nothing connects Antichrist with the AOD except futurists imagination.

 

Again, there was a gap of several months between the Roman attax on Jerusalem, not a matter of hours.

And Matthew & Mark did NOT say that was the AOD. Jesus said, when you SEE the AOD...". I suggest you read Daniel 9, 11 & 12 CAREFULLY.

I suggest you add a CAREFUL reading of Rev. 13 to the above Scriptures I cited.

 

From the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies under Cestius, in AD66, till he sacrifice failed was 1290 days. Josephus give the dates so you an check. there was another 45 days till the people (Roman legions) of the prince who was to come, (Titus) I think that makes 1335 days in all. The armies of Titus destroyed the temple against his orders, and his army were out of control so he gave the order to attack, to avoid having to charge his army with mutiny. when the temple was well on fire,

Because Mathew and Mark don't say specifically when the AOD was, doesn't mean you can teach what you like. The scripture is made plain by Luke speaking of the same event says, Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. They did see and they fled the city. And the city was desolated'

There was only one AOD and the scripture is clear that it was the armies surrounding Jerusalem. Actually if you read Daniel 10 carefully you see it was the Roman armies who would set up the AOD.

 

So it is OK to believe a Catholic site? Catholics are quite happy with preterist teaching as they are with futurist .

 

Again, the AOL will be when the "beast/antichrist" defiles the new temple the Jews will build.

Daniel 9:26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

So we see it was the people of THE PRINCE WHO IS TO COME who destroyed J & the temple. Titus was already with them; he was NOT then yet to come!

Daniel 11:31 Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Yes, the AOD is to be SET UP. Titus & his army didn't set anything up in the temple. And Daniel 12:11 also says the AOD will be SET UP. Now, what does it consist of?

Rev. 13: 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

And where will he do it?

2 Thess. 2: 2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

As for Daniel 12, Danny had asked gabriel when "the end", specifically, "the outcome of these events" would be, and Gabe gave the answer of 1260 days from the time the AOD was SET UP, with a final figure of 1335 days. So, obviously, the AOD has NOT yet occurred!

Here's Luke 21:20 in modern English: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that ITS desolation is near.

So, we see Luke was writing about JERUSALEM ITSELF, not the AOD.

No, there WILL be only one AOD. Had it already occurred, gabriel's message to Daniel wes incorrect. I take GABRIEL'S word over that of whatever groddy source you got your misinterps of some Scriptures from.

 

You are extremely offensive. You get your futurist interpretation, directly or indirectly, from Scofield, Darby, Irving and back to Rome. Rome loves the futurist interpretation,

 

I don't understand your logic. Matthew 24:15-21 says those in Judea should flee when they saw the AOD, If it was in the temple they wouldn't see it.

 

Don't be ridiculous. He was to come at the time of Daniel, but came, and his people destroyed the temple against his wishes.
Did Titus come? yes, Was the temple destroyed by his people against his wishes? yes. Was the city left desolate? yes. Prophecy fulfilled.

 

I don't care. if that's what it takes to help stifle a false doctrine.

MMRRPP! WRONG!

I get it from Scripture and history. OTOH, you get YOURS from Alcazar, Preston, Gentry, Sproul, etc.

 

There were ALWAYS some people in the temple, and "the word" woulda certainly quickly spread had such an event occurred. Before Titus came, there were no Roman 'princes' in the area. (Titus wasn't really a prince, nor was his father vespasian. They were army generals. Vespasian was made Caesar by the Roman senate and his men; same for Titus.

 

That destruction was NOT the AOD. The AOD is to be SET UP, and Titus didn't set anything up-he & his army tore down.

And Gabriel also told Daniel that at the "time of the end":

Daniel 12:4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Now, WHEN have both travel & knowledge greatly increased, more than any time in history? Only in the last hundred years.

 

Alcazar was a preterist and I am not. I don't know what the others teach, my teaching is that of the Waldensians, Hussites and Lollards, all long before any of those you quoted. and long before Cardinal Bellarmine and other Jesuits introduced the futurist. The pope is Antichrist, Rome hates that which is why she promoted 1stly Preterism, (Alcazar) then 2ndly Futurism, by Ribera, Bellarmine and others..

FUTURISM

Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

• Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
• Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
• Abolish the Christian religion.
• Deny Jesus Christ.
• Be received by the Jews.
• Pretend to be God.
• Kill the two witnesses of God.
• Conquer the world.
• 
  
• Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis h�reticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).
  
  Volume I (Book 3 - De Summo Pontifice), 1608 printing.
  A 19th century printing:
  
  Volume I (Book 3 - De Summo Pontifice)
  Volume II
  Volume III
  Volume IV
  Volume IV Part II
• 
  
• Michael Walpole
  Available Online: A Treatise of Antichrist. Conteyning the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole.
  
  The third chapter, titled "Wherein it is shewed, that Antichrist is not yet come", (pages 49-51) discusses the protestant (Lutheran) Matthias Flacius Illyricus (1520-1575) and his Catalogue of Witnesses to the Truth who before our day cried out against the Pope (Catalogus Testium Veritatis - Basel, 1556), his Magdeburg Centuries (Ecclesiastica Historia, 1559 - 1574), an ecclesiastical history of 13 volumes (1 volume per century) to 1298 A.D. which established from that history that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, and a 1260 year spiritual reign of the papal Antichrist, proposed to be from 606 - 1866 A.D., with the Lord's judgment commencing in 1866!