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Featured I am Genuinely Confused

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017.

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  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I see no reason to close the thread until my new thread is made. I may yet be influenced by comments. I've also spent years on this journey to be honest, this was just the first time bringing it to this forum.

    -edit-

    You guys and gals always sharpen me, I must say.
     
    #81 Steven Yeadon, Aug 26, 2017
  2. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    I fear you are going to get confused again. This is totally unnecessary! Remember, "God is a God of order, not of disorder, but of peace." (1 Cor) Close the thread. Take as much time as you need to review what you have learned. Then work on a new thread.
     
    #82 Mr. Davis, Aug 26, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
  3. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I will, but I am emotionally and mentally tired and I may take tomorrow off. I rather surprisingly got to this point earlier today. My mind just stopped churning so fast and slid into a comfortable perspective that was new from the one I left.
     
    #83 Steven Yeadon, Aug 26, 2017
  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    God never gave or gives anyone any amount of control over Him. His giving man the ability to make choices that fall within the limits of His perfect and His permissive wills, in no way compromises His absolute Soverignty.
     
    #84 Reynolds, Aug 26, 2017
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Refusing to redeem leaves justice with no mercy.
    Choosing to redeem leaves justice with mercy, which is given by grace.

    I am surprised how many people view their self more highly than they ought.
     
    #85 MennoSota, Aug 26, 2017
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  6. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Have a good rest, Steven!
     
    #86 Mr. Davis, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
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  7. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    I am glad you are comfortable. As I said in another post to you, have a great rest!
     
    #87 Mr. Davis, Aug 27, 2017
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  8. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    Why? God says you can be sure. He says make your calling and election sure. What you are saying may sound humble, but if God says something, and you say the opposite, is that not pride?
     
    #88 Lukasaurus, Aug 27, 2017
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  9. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Good point.
     
    #89 Steven Yeadon, Aug 27, 2017
  10. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    God has given you comfort in your heart because He has loved you from eternity past. Nothing in heaven or on earth can take that away from you! (Rom 8) Also in that chapter, God tells you through Paul that your salvation was foreordained and that you are predestined to glory. (see also Eph 1)

    You have been quickened (made alive from spiritual death) by God, (Eph 2), and have been given the new birth (regeneration) (John 3) so that He could give you faith. This does not happen by our will. The Spirit of God does it.

    He has worked in your heart and enabled you to receive Him. (John 1) Those that receive Him, are called the Children of God. This does not come by our effort or through our will. (Read John 1 carefully and Rom 9) I hope these words encourage you and make you more comfortable with your discovery that Calvinism is true.

    Please do not let others confuse you again.
     
    #90 Mr. Davis, Aug 27, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    I thought he came to the conclusion that it wasn't. I gave up on trying to determine something when scripture affirms both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. I guess I basically am a molinist.
     
    #91 Lukasaurus, Aug 27, 2017
  12. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    Every Calvinistic and Arminian Scholar will tell you that God has at least two wills, often referred to as His revealed will and His Secret Will. Here's an example; God hates murder, especially the murder of the innocent. Who planned Christ's murder? Read Isaiah 53 and Acts 4, Isaiah says "For it PLEASED THE LORD TO BRUISE HIM", and in Acts 4 Peter states that Pilate, the Jews and Gentiles conspired together to do WHAT GOD HAD ORDAINED.

    So how to reconcile? On one level, God hated what happened to His Son, but on the other hand He loved that it happened as it meant salvation to the elect and glory to Him. Think of it this way, your child is fascinated with light sockets, you keep trying but he keeps trying, so you talk to him, you spank him, and he stops. Now you did not enjoy on the one hand spanking him, but on the other you did as you know he's safe.

    At this point it's very important that you get into a good study. I would recommend Berkof "Systematic Theology", it is truly the best but a very difficult read for most. Go online and order Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology", I like it more than my brothers but they like it very much, it's a much easier read, filled with undeniable verses, and it will put this puzzle together for you. All the best!!
     
    #92 Calv1, Aug 27, 2017
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  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I think humans are sometimes presumptuous on these matters.

    Did not our Lord say "many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

    And did not even Paul suggest he wasn't confident about his own ministry?
    "So I do not run aimlessly ... lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

    I do not believe the Bible teaches that each one of us can have metaphysical certitude about such things because humans are so prone to self-deception, not to mention the deceptions of Satan. We can, however, live in the blessed hope that New Testament writers mention again and again. That's good enough for me.
     
    #93 rsr, Aug 27, 2017
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  14. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    This argument reminds me of the need to fear our Father in heaven. I again see that assuming absolute safety is foolish, it kills our fear of the Lord. That fear keeps me form doing the wrong thing by sinning 10,000X better than anything else. I will consider myself saved, but as 2 Peter 1:5-11 tells us, I can be assured of my status in heaven by making every effort to live as God requires.
     
    #94 Steven Yeadon, Aug 27, 2017
  15. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I've come to a weird. barely Arminian stance. I will explain more, but the thing that makes me confident is that I arrived here based on the weight of the scriptures alone. I have very rarely seen an Arminian get there. I am fully open to the idea that the predestinationists may be right, but I believe the scriptures on their own testify to a different theory.
     
    #95 Steven Yeadon, Aug 27, 2017
  16. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    That certainly was not my intent. My point was that I believe in predestination but cannot know with absolute certainty of my place within God's will and purpose.

    Perseverance, like election, is a gift of God; it cannot be earned by making effort to live as God requires.

    That's why I live in blessed hope, not metaphysical certainty.
     
    #96 rsr, Aug 27, 2017
  17. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Scripture affirms the Sovereignty of God. Man is DEAD in his trespasses and sins (Eph 2). A spiritually DEAD man can do NOTHING. He can exercise no responsibility for his salvation. God must QUICKEN him. Only God can save him.
     
    #97 Mr. Davis, Aug 27, 2017
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  18. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Steve: I see why you're confused. But you don't have to have a systematic soteriology to live a Christian life. I happen to have one because that's the kind of person I am; and it has changed through the years.

    Do what the Bible teaches, love God and serve his people and remember that salvation is all of the Lord (which Arminians and Calvinists agree on).
     
    #98 rsr, Aug 27, 2017
  19. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for the advice, but I have been wrestling with extreme emotions on this issue for years and years.

    I finally needed to sit down, break open the Word of God, and do research to find out what I should or should not believe. To do otherwise was to be foolish and rebellious, for me personally, at this juncture. I have searched a lot on this issue but this time I believe our Father in heaven helped me, along with you guys, come to a conclusion based on the weight of scripture alone.

    I am 10 times more at peace internally from this and I feel the Spirit's peace and joy now that I have done this. Am I 100% on this issue? No, but I leave open that I could be wrong as long as whatever is true is on conformity to the whole bible.

    By struggling with and accepting for a time predestination, I have come to the conclusion that I am just a puny man, that God does things I do not understand that grieve me such as the devastation in Houston, but I cannot question God. As Job did, God must be praised and worshiped even in the midst of utter nightmare. I believe I am more ready for the Day of Judgment in this Time of Wrath having gone on this investigation.
     
    #99 Steven Yeadon, Aug 27, 2017
  20. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    You will never make a new thread!

    And, you are entertaining contrary comments. You are not honest. Instead, you are a hypocrite and a liar:

    "What strikes me is that unless I was willing to allow for Calvinism to be true, I could make no further progress on the issue."

    You cannot say you’ve changed your mind again! What you say above is no hypothetical statement. It is given with certainty. By what you say here, you are no longer confused. You do not need any more “pro” and “con” comments.

    Your journey is over.

    You claim you need “more” research. Actually, you are dragging this out purely for the attention you can get. Perhaps others will see through your charade as well. Repent, and leave the forum. I will be praying for you.
     
    #100 Mr. Davis, Aug 28, 2017
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