Counsel Wanted for My Theological Conclusions

The first 3 were not ever saved, and the last one was, as evidenced by them producing a ripe harvest!

 

The problem is that the parable is not warning lost people not to become "lost-er". There is almost no focus at all in the Bible about being the best lost person you can be... or about springing to life as one kind of lost person only to later fail and fall back into being your original sort of lost person

If the entire context is "better or best ways to be lost" the parable loses its entire meaning.

The entire argument that "someone is lost" in the parable is that they later die... or later are choked out.

But if your claim that they never were saved to start with is true - then even if they did not get choked or die - they would still be lost because you have defined even their best state as "still lost ... not yet born again". That does not work at all in the parable.

You cannot fail to persevere in doing something that you never did to start with.

The person that climbs the mountain can fall from it... but the person that never climbed at all - cannot fall from the mountain.

 

That is a self-conflicted statement

IF the "evidence" for the first 3 "never saved" is that they failed to "remain in the state" of the 4th one that never fell -- then the 4th one is "persevering" in one of the unsaved states of the first 3 and not failing to persevere in remaining in that state like the others did.

I.E. a self-contradicting statement is required to say that the evidence against the first 3 ever being saved at all -- is that they failed to remain and persevere in the state that the 4th person was in.

It is like saying "you never went to Nebraska if you go to Nebraska and then return to your home state after a few years"

I see a lot of people trying to make that case.. but they never resolve the fact that there is no such thing. It is false on the face of it.

 

You will find solid Bible support for your first four bullet-points. The last one on a truly saved person being able to "lose their salvation", is not that simple, as there are very strong texts in the Bible for both arguments. I personally hold that it is not possible for a "born-again, Spirit filled Christian" to be "eternally damned".

 

Just accept that Jesus knows the answer here on this issue, as He plainly stated that ALL whom he saved will be raised up by Him, and NONE will be lost!

 

Jesus saving you is not like Him being a fire insurance policy, as He now is into all areas of your life!
There is where eternal rewards come into play, for those saved who neglect their gifts and calling will lose out when rewards are measured.
I would really recommend just Google online the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and take time to compare that to the scriptures listed in the bible as references!

 

Just take your time, and look up the scriptures being referenced!

 

The main problem with this "confession", is that it is heavily biased with its Reformed/Calvinistic theology, much of which is not really Scripture grounded, even though it gives Bible texts, they do not represent what the Bible actually teaches!

 

Yes in the case of the Arminian Baptist and the 4 point Calvinist - because all they need to do is be convinced that in some year in the past they actually were truly converted and born again. Once that is done -- the game is over. Nothing else matters.

And as a non-Baptist Arminian - I know for certain that a great many people were in fact saved/born-again in the past that are not necessarily going to "persevere firm unto the end". This means the group of "at some time ever in the past - were born again" is very large as compared to "currently in a born-again saving relationship with Christ".

The answer to that one is "atonement". The means for forgiveness in the Bible is based on the "Atonement model" not on the "grocery store model" that many people use today. Under the Atonement model you come to God - confess and claim the blood sacrifice for very specific sins.

Under the grocery store model - once your groceries are paid for - the grocer has no more say in the matter. You can go out to a land fill and dump all your groceries in the dump -- and its ok -- they are yours -- no chance that the Grocer is going to follow you around - disapprove of what you did with groceries and then take them back. After all "he got paid" and that is all that was needed

But in the Bible's "atonement model' -- "God so loved that HE GAVE" not "that HE got PAID". In other words - 'God gets tortured' as the "payment". Thus God has every right to determine the "conditions" under which someone retains that blood-bought-payment. And so when Christ said "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive others" in Matthew 18 speaking of the "Forgiveness Revoked" example -- He meant it.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" you have BOTH - the "Atoning Sacrifice" which of course is full and complete at the cross 1 John 2:2. but you also have the work of Christ as High Priest - which in Hebrew 8:1 "is the main point" BOTH are needed for the entire bible scope of Atonement to be complete. And as Hebrews 9 reminds us - that work of High Priest and atonement is going on the Heavenly Sanctuary - right now for us! We come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in time of need .We walk with Christ -- "through the spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as Paul points out in Romans 8.

1 Cor 9 Paul says he buffets his body and makes it his slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others - he himself should be disqualified from the Gospel after "having done all things FOR the Gospel".

The Baptist-Arminian form and the 4-Point Calvinist form are mostly doomed to going over that cliff and only the grace of God can prevent it.

But there is a 3 and 5 Point Calvinist version of OSAS that takes the other route. Those guys say that if you fail to persevere 20 years from today at some point -- then all the assurance you think you have today - is no assurance at all. It is nothin'.

THAT is a huge leap the opposite direction! And it is inside the context of a flavor of OSAS!

 

Particularly section 19.

And then get the expanded version authored by Spurgeon -- read that section 19 very carefully. A good teaching can be found there on the Law and the Gospel.

 

They indeed do represent what the scriptures teach though.

 

he held very strongly to saved by grace alone, faith alone though!

 

And as a non-Baptist Arminian - I know for certain that a great many people were in fact saved/born-again in the past that are not necessarily going to "persevere firm unto the end". This means the group of "at some time ever in the past - were born again" is very large as compared to "currently in a born-again saving relationship with Christ".




The answer to that one is "atonement". The means for forgiveness in the Bible is based on the "Atonement model" not on the "grocery store model" that many people use today. Under the Atonement model you come to God - confess and claim the blood sacrifice for very specific sins.

Under the grocery store model - once your groceries are paid for - the grocer has no more say in the matter. You can go out to a land fill and dump all your groceries in the dump -- and its ok -- they are yours -- no chance that the Grocer is going to follow you around - disapprove of what you did with groceries and then take them back. After all "he got paid" and that is all that was needed



But in the Bible's "atonement model' -- "God so loved that HE GAVE" not "that HE got PAID". In other words - 'God gets tortured' as the "payment". Thus God has every right to determine the "conditions" under which someone retains that blood-bought-payment. And so when Christ said "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive others" in Matthew 18 speaking of the "Forgiveness Revoked" example -- He meant it.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" you have BOTH - the "Atoning Sacrifice" which of course is full and complete at the cross 1 John 2:2. but you also have the work of Christ as High Priest - which in Hebrew 8:1 "is the main point" BOTH are needed for the entire bible scope of Atonement to be complete. And as Hebrews 9 reminds us - that work of High Priest and atonement is going on the Heavenly Sanctuary - right now for us! We come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in time of need .We walk with Christ -- "through the spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as Paul points out in Romans 8.

1 Cor 9 Paul says he buffets his body and makes it his slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others - he himself should be disqualified from the Gospel after "having done all things FOR the Gospel".






The Baptist-Arminian form and the 4-Point Calvinist form are mostly doomed to going over that cliff and only the grace of God can prevent it.

But there is a 3 and 5 Point Calvinist version of OSAS that takes the other route. Those guys say that if you fail to persevere 20 years from today at some point -- then all the assurance you think you have today - is no assurance at all. It is nothin'.

THAT is a huge leap the opposite direction! And it is inside the context of a flavor of OSAS![/QUOTE

Jesus stated that NONE that he ever saved would get lost and unsaved, correct?

 

Well, for the first four points of "Calvinism", they do not.

 

They do indeed, but that all depends on how we see the scriptures describing things such as the Fall, free will, salvation, spiritaul condition !

 

it also depends on how the Scriptures are used, or misused!