Counsel Wanted for My Theological Conclusions

[Steven Yeadon]

I must chime in that I have made my choice for now, and the only thing I am debating now are various aspects of eternal security. That said, I don't know if you guys having a debate is allowed given the original post. Perhaps it would be best to make a new thread to carry on a debate, because to me, the original poster, this debate is over except for aspects of OSAS.

 

[utilyan]

I must chime in that I have made my choice for now, and the only thing I am debating now are various aspects of eternal security. That said, I don't know if you guys having a debate is allowed given the original post. Perhaps it would be best to make a new thread to carry on a debate, because to me, the original poster, this debate is over except for aspects of OSAS.

Well the debate throws into focus who's perspective is valid concerning "Saved" by my own personal perspective or God's?


For example being able to point to God from the "get-go" who would be wrong in declaring I am forever saved?

The common perspective is egoistic perspective, its all about me and getting what I want out of it.


Matthew 16

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Where category do you fall in Steven? as one who wishes to save his life? A life is a life, plenty are willing to give up their life for Christ, but plenty would never part over their "eternal" life.

You have to consider also the focus of timing. Anyone who is in heaven probably has no problem declaring once saved always saved, and even to question it carries sin in its essence. A very subtle hint of faithlessness or in plain English..... a lack of trust which can be traced back to Adam and Eve as the sin that caused all problems.

Are you willing to lose eternal life for Christ's sake? There is ONE highest priority not two or three, but here is where the math doesn't make sense to people because they keep trying to split Christ from us. The highest priority is to Love GOD and Love Neighbor. Salvation as in the sense as how many people tote it around is not even in the picture.

The minute you take your eyes off Christ to oil check salvation is the same minute you lost it.

Why because that's when we look on our greatest idol our own ego rather then putting your focus on God, who by the way is your best bet getting you through this labyrinth.

 

[BobRyan]

If God commands all to repent - and God says He is not willing for any to perish (2 Peter 3) and God says "as I live - I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" -- does this indicate that God desires something very specific?

God also commands all men to "be perfect EVEN AS God IS perfect"

True -- does that mean he can't possibly mean what He actually says - or does it mean - He really does mean both?

You may pick the former - I pick the latter.

but that does not mean they have ability to obtain that goal

Until you read Romans 8:4-10 and 1 John 3:4-12.

Anyone can take various texts and declare God cannot possibly mean what His Word says... does not mean it is true.

 

[BobRyan]

I did get one challenge from TCassidy to these views in my last thread and I decided to include that challenge and my response in this thread.

TCassidy Said:

You can't have it both ways. If you admit even a tiny work then your grace is made null and void.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.​

Steven Yeadon Replied:

That is a clever retort using two verses I did not know about.

That said, I have done some research and thought for a little on your argument.

1. Here I will reference (Romans 4:1-8). These verses show that Paul does not regard faith as a work, but in fact he contrasts faith with works throughout this passage.​

In fact in both Romans 3 and 4 Paul makes it clear that on the one hand he is speaking of "works apart from faith" and on the hand "faith that does not make void the law of God - but rather establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31... I.E. the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

TCassidy's statement is a quote of "himself" --he said -- "If you admit even a tiny work then your grace is made null and void."

James 2 "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" -- even if we allow that these are the works that are done via the Romans 8:4-10 Spirit of God and by faith -- they are still works. But they are not "works apart from faith" that Paul condemns in both Romans 3 and Romans 4.

Romans 10: “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Man made tradition that invents -- "If you admit even a tiny work then your grace is made null and void." may "sound good" but it is not in the Bible.

Col 2 - in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

 

[Aaron]

• Although man is fallen, he is not entirely incapacitated by the sinful nature and can choose to put faith in Jesus Christ. However, his sinful nature before being given a new heart and new spirit greatly incapacitates his ability to do and understand the good.

According to Jesus, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I'm back and my power is now on. I still have lots of cleaning up to do after the hurricane though. As for my previous thread, I do believe now that OSAS does not work with even limited choice. Thus, this is where I currently stand with my own beliefs due to my research of the bible and the need to be logically consistent. Of course, these beliefs still need to go through the crucible and to be honest I am not fully convinced by them:

• Although man is fallen, he is not entirely incapacitated by the sinful nature and can choose to put faith in Jesus Christ.

  He can "choose" only if the Holy Ghost is dealing with his heart about his sin, God's righteousness, and God's judgement(the reality of Hell). In other words, he can't just wake up one day and say "you know, I think I will become a Christian today"
• 
  

• However, his sinful nature before being given a new heart and new spirit greatly incapacitates his ability to do and understand the good.

  A sinner, knows right from wrong, but he is a slave to sin and has no power whatsover to stop. he also cannot know and understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. He may "do good things" but his heart is still evil

• God makes a plea to all men that they repent, put faith in Jesus, and be saved.

  Yes
• 
  

• Jesus bore the sin of all mankind, but not everyone will want Jesus as their king. As a result, many will be rejected who Jesus died for.

  Many will go to Hell, who Jesus died for, because they rejected Him.

• The grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.

  Rejected-yes, "beaten"-no. Nobody "beats" God at anything. God allows rejection.

• A person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

  Absolutely not. A person who has NEVER been saved can "sin away their day of grace" and be given over to a reprobate mind. But a person who is truly saved cannot "fall from grace" in the sense of being lost again. He can sin, yes, but if so he will be chastened and scourged by his Father in heaven. Once you are a child of God, you are His child and that will never change.

This almost makes me a straight Arminian,

You don't have to be a Calvinist, Arminian. You can simply be a Christian that they have a hard time pinning labels on

but I do not believe in something as hokey as God looked ahead to see who would love Him. I try to avoid defining how the Lord's foreknowledge works, as His ways are unimaginably higher than mine.

God "inhabits eternity". He knows the beginning from the ending because He is there right now! Jesus told those Jews in John chapter 8 "before Abraham was, I AM " So, yes, He knows who will love Him and he knows who will reject because He is God. Just because God KNOWS what will happen in the "future" does not mean he forces or controls every event. Some people have a hard time reconciling that; I don't. It's sort of like "how can God be one God and still be a Trinity". I don't understand it, but I believe it. It's just one of those mysteries we'll have to ask Him one day.

 

[Yeshua1]

In fact in both Romans 3 and 4 Paul makes it clear that on the one hand he is speaking of "works apart from faith" and on the hand "faith that does not make void the law of God - but rather establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31... I.E. the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

TCassidy's statement is a quote of "himself" --he said -- "If you admit even a tiny work then your grace is made null and void."

James 2 "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" -- even if we allow that these are the works that are done via the Romans 8:4-10 Spirit of God and by faith -- they are still works. But they are not "works apart from faith" that Paul condemns in both Romans 3 and Romans 4.

Romans 10: “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Man made tradition that invents -- "If you admit even a tiny work then your grace is made null and void." may "sound good" but it is not in the Bible.

Col 2 - in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Are we saved by Grace alone faith alone, or not?

 

[Yeshua1]

According to Jesus, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

Are sinners saved due to their own wills, or due to the very will of God?

 

[Yeshua1]

I must chime in that I have made my choice for now, and the only thing I am debating now are various aspects of eternal security. That said, I don't know if you guys having a debate is allowed given the original post. Perhaps it would be best to make a new thread to carry on a debate, because to me, the original poster, this debate is over except for aspects of OSAS.

You now hold to OSAS then?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

You now hold to OSAS then?

Yes.

However, my OSAS is one that says that we do not know our eternal destination for sure, and we should not assume our eternal destiny, unless we are tested and found true. In our ignorance we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling and make every effort to live as the Father wants us to, in order to be welcomed into Jesus' kingdom with open arms one day (2 Peter 1:10-11).

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes.

However, my OSAS is one that says that we do not know our eternal destination for sure, and we should not assume our eternal destiny, unless we are tested and found true. In our ignorance we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling and make every effort to live as the Father wants us to, in order to be welcomed into Jesus' kingdom with open arms one day (2 Peter 1:10-11).

Who keeps us saved, God or ourselves?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Yes.

However, my OSAS is one that says that we do not know our eternal destination for sure, and we should not assume our eternal destiny, unless we are tested and found true. In our ignorance we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling and make every effort to live as the Father wants us to, in order to be welcomed into Jesus' kingdom with open arms one day (2 Peter 1:10-11).

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Now read 1 John 4:6-21 God expects us to KNOW.

 

[Yeshua1]

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Now read 1 John 4:6-21 God expects us to KNOW.

And to obey Him due to loving Him for saving us, and for keeping us, and not out of fear and trying to earn and keep saved!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

And to obey Him due to loving Him for saving us, and for keeping us, and not out of fear and trying to earn and keep saved!

Yes.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[BobRyan]

Are we saved by Grace alone faith alone, or not?

Are you about to quote the actual Bible?

1. "Justified by faith apart from works of the law" -- Romans 3
2. "Justified by works and not by faith alone" -- James 2.

Are you "ok" with the Bible?

Because I "am"

When a lost person comes to Christ they have no good works to recommend themselves to God -- they seek justification by faith alone.

 

[BobRyan]

Are sinners saved due to their own wills, or due to the very will of God?

Were you just about to quote the Bible just then?

God wills to "be the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
God "is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.
God wills "to DRAW ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32
God wills free will such that "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

 

[BobRyan]

Yes.

However, my OSAS is one that says that we do not know our eternal destination for sure, and we should not assume our eternal destiny, unless we are tested and found true. In our ignorance we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling and make every effort to live as the Father wants us to, in order to be welcomed into Jesus' kingdom with open arms one day (2 Peter 1:10-11).

When we get to heaven -- everyone in heaven will have been "Once saved always saved" that is to say from the moment they died (or were translated) going BACKWARD in time they could trace to some point where they got saved and then remained saved all the way to heaven. ("Persevering firm until the end" as Paul says)

This is the part that BOTH sides agree on.

The "difference" is in the detailed answer to "yes but what about BEFORE that point?".

That is to say - BEFORE that person was converted and then "persevered firm to the end" could that person have been lost and then before that saved... and then before that... lost?

What is more - could it be that someone who ends up in the lake of fire of Rev 20 -- was at one time saved just the way that Ezek 18 claims?? And also as Matt 18 claims "I forgave you all that debt!"

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The sticking point to believing in OSAS and free will is something that feels more and more powerful over time. That the two are mutually exclusive, since if we have free will, then how do we stay safe until the End?

When reading the Old Testament, I get the sense that even David isn't safe if he turned on the Lord, as he did with Uriah and Bathsheba. Then again, there are some verses in the bible that just read so straightforward, that OSAS is hard to argue against. Then again, such verses do remind me of John 6:54, which is wildly taken out of context by many people.

 

[Aaron]

According to Jesus, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

No. Therefore, repentance cannot be the act of a corrupt heart.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

No. Therefore, repentance cannot be the act of a corrupt heart.

The publican smote his breast and said "God be merciful to me a sinner"
That was an act of desperate self preservation. So how can acknowledging that you're a lowdown, wicked, sorry sinner,pleading for mercy from God Almighty, not be the act of a corrupt heart? His was.