What do we do to lose eternal life. as per your belief system?
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Counsel Wanted for My Theological Conclusions
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Is this you quoting Romans 2:5-16 or just wishful thinking being expressed??
I prefer an actual quote of the text if you are talking about doctrine. (Protestant reformation and all)
And that spirit of the lost person "overpowered God" according to Calvinism??
How many lost people - are "Godly obedient and loving children of God" ?? According to Romans 8:4-9
When you have your forgiveness revoked you are lost -- so what is at least one way in which "I forgave you all that debt" is then fully revoked ... according to the actual Bible?
Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.
Forgiveness "revoked" in Matt 18 for lack of appreciation of the full forgiveness fully received.
Gal 5 calls it "Severed from Christ... Fallen from Grace"
Ezek 18 says the save person simply dies the 2nd death - the lake of fire death of torment in fire and brimstone
Wow Aaron never thought you would support Universal Salvation.
Unless you want to argue God is Evil.
God a corrupt tree or good tree?
That is nonsense because according to Calvinism the spirit was never offered to anyone to be rejected.
If the spirit is offered SINCERELY it would mean God DESIRES and WANTS salvation for ALL.
No, we hold that the offer of salvation in jesus is given out to all, is sincere offer, but only the elect will receive, as all others "willfully" reject it!
So God wants all mankind to be saved right?
If the spirit is offered SINCERELY to ALL you can't calculate his intention of all?
Does it not plainly suggest he wants all to have the spirit?
If YOU do not want a person to take your car do you offer them the keys to your car?
Or if you do offer your keys doesn't it mean you want them to take it?
The command of God on all mankind is clear, And you still don't know if God's command is his true desire?
And the price of rice in China is ?
First, this is a parable and doctrine is not to be built upon parables.Second the word "until" demonstrates in the parable that his debt would be repaid. Third, this can be easily applied to TEMPORAL chastisement rather than etennal damnation.
In context this refers to falling from the DOCTRINE of grace due to false teaching, deception, not falling from the state of grace (Gal. 3:1)
It says no such thing! He is condemning the judicial system in Israel for judging the children for the sins of the fathers. It is the judicial system of Israel that is being corrected and amended.
"First, this is a parable and doctrine is not to be built upon parables."
Jesus just said:
My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.
Are you serious? That is not doctrine!?
Are the desires of God the same thing as His will then?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I haven't read the entire thread.... but there's a problem with this. The Bible, in several instances, defines Jesus' death as a propitiation. We know what that word means. Basically, propitiation means that God's disposition toward someone is changed from wrath to acceptance based on His wrath being propitiated, or poured out on a substitute.
So, if that's what propitiation means, and it clearly does, then you have either a limited atonement in the Calvinist sense or a universal atonement in the Unitarian sense. In no way, if propitiation is propitiation, can you have someone for whom Jesus died not reaching salvation.
The Archangel
They don’t truly understand it though...the word is alien, right.
The sin offering appeases the wrath of God towards that person, so how could a person remain an unsaved sinner, and yet God fully accepts Him at same time now?
I believe this question comes down to the nature of a genuine salvation experience. Jesus said "You must be born again." That means a total change in which the old things are put aside and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ begins. The true believer does not simply make a public announcement of their faith and then go back to his old sinful ways. The real question is who or what is the master of your life. The young ruler found out that Jesus expects a complete commitment to Him. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. This change will become increasing evident to others as a Christian goes forward in his life. A true Christian will persevere until the end (physical death). This doesn't mean that he will live a perfect life but when he sins he will recognize his error and repent. The emphasis is on who the person is in their heart. The Bible clearly states in MAT 25 that true Christians will be judged by the effect their faith has had on how they have lived their life and how they have treated others.
[Mat 25:31 KJV] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[Mat 25:32 KJV] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
[Mat 25:33 KJV] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[Mat 25:34 KJV] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[Mat 25:35 KJV] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[Mat 25:36 KJV] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[Mat 25:37 KJV] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
[Mat 25:38 KJV] When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
[Mat 25:39 KJV] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[Mat 25:40 KJV] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
[Mat 25:41 KJV] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This can be interpreted from either a Calvinist (Perseverance of the Saints) or a non-Calvinist (endure until the end) perspective.
[Mat 24:13 KJV] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[Mar 13:13 KJV] And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[Mat 25:31 KJV] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[Mat 25:32 KJV] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
[Mat 25:33 KJV] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[Mat 25:34 KJV] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[Mat 25:35 KJV] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[Mat 25:36 KJV] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[Mat 25:37 KJV] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
[Mat 25:38 KJV] When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
[Mat 25:39 KJV] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[Mat 25:40 KJV] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
[Mat 25:41 KJV] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This can be interpreted from either a Calvinist (Perseverance of the Saints) or a non-Calvinist (endure until the end) perspective.
[Mat 24:13 KJV] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[Mar 13:13 KJV] And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Greek pagan form of propitiation was that of the gods being propitiated by the human sacrifice or goat sacrifice such that they decide to view with favor rather than wrath.
But the Bible version is "God so loved the HE GAVE" (totally foreign to the Greek pagan form of propitiation) not the pagan "man so propitiated that God relented".
In the Bible it is "Atonement" not the Greek pagan form of "propitiation". Thus in NIV 1 John 2:2 "Christ is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
The reason this is not "universalism" is because of the "details" in "atonement" as God has defined it. For example in Lev 16 - the "Atonement" is not just "atoning sacrifice" it is ALSO the work of the High Priest .. and as Hebrews 8:1-2 points out "This is the MAIN POINT".
Calvinism missed that elephant in the living room.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Torturing God appeases His wrath??
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Your "argument" doesn't consider the actual definition of the word "propitiation." Many have denied the Greek simply because they don't think God would do such a thing. However, the biblical authors, by using the word they used when others were available tell us that God does indeed do such a thing--taking His just and righteous wrath out on Christ as our substitute, thereby changing His disposition toward those who would believe.
Of course, the reason people want to redefine "propitiation" is because they don't like the implications, and so many read their own presuppositions into a word that clearly doesn't mean what you wish it did. They try to define God rather than letting Him define Himself.
Now, the 1 John 2:2 passage is a bit problematic. But, despite your denials, we know what propitiation means. So, it must be that the "whole world" goes along with how John typically uses "world," which is NOT talking about every person. Of course, this is another issue with presupposition. It isn't so much that "world" can't refer to all kinds of people, or the world' system, etc., it's just that you don't want it to. And, because you don't want it to mean what it actually means--because it offends your delicate sensibilities--you seek to change the meaning of the text, which is helping no one.
The Archangel