Counsel Wanted for My Theological Conclusions

[BobRyan]

The sticking point to believing in OSAS and free will is something that feels more and more powerful over time. That the two are mutually exclusive, since if we have free will, then how do we stay safe until the End?

True. The Bible presents it as an "IF" in Romans 11.. and Romans 2 it says it this way -

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

When reading the Old Testament, I get the sense that even David isn't safe if he turned on the Lord, as he did with Uriah and Bathsheba.

Indeed it is the same rule used in Romans 2.
And the same one we see in Romans 11

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Then again, there are some verses in the bible that just read so straightforward, that OSAS is hard to argue against. Then again, such verses do remind me of John 6:54, which is wildly taken out of context by many people.

God knows the future - He knows exactly who will be saved and who will be lost -- His plan of salvation works - and His argument is essentially "I have created the Ark-Solution for the flood and no one is able to rip the people out of the ark and drown them"... That kind of statement gets made all the time. Yet each person had to "choose" to be an ark-builder a firm believer in the ark-solution and could not "give up half way to building the ark" and still be "saved".

 

[BobRyan]

No. Therefore, repentance cannot be the act of a corrupt heart.

It can if God "enables it" via the drawing of John 12:32 and John 6 -- to choose repentance... while lost.

Calvinist argument is "God is not able to do that".

The bible argument is "Oh yes He is able to do that"

God convicts the heart of the lost, enables them to choose and when they choose repentance - He then grants it.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

True. The Bible presents it as an "IF" in Romans 11.. and Romans 2 it says it this way -

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

What is really going on here, which I am wrestling with, is that the epistles are a follow on to the Old Testament. The Old Testament reads as if free will is just a given. I just read the second half of the David and Bathsheba incident last night. There is no way that from David, Bathsheba, Uriah, and Joab's perspectives that they would ever say that there is no free will. Also I am down to only two verses holding up OSAS: Hebrews 10:14 and Ephesians 1:13-14. That's it after going through like thirty in support of OSAS and obliterating them with time spent in the Old Testament. As I read more of the Old Testament now, I realize that I must use it to understand later revelation and not the other way around. God will reveal more over the Ages, but He is not going to tempt us or deceive us with earlier revelation. We can very easily deceive ourselves reading the bible backwards.

 

[Aaron]

No. Therefore, repentance cannot be the act of a corrupt heart.

So, a corrupt tree can bring forth good fruit.

Got it.

 

[Aaron]

It can if God "enables it" via the drawing of John 12:32 and John 6 -- to choose repentance... while lost.

Calvinist argument is "God is not able to do that".

The bible argument is "Oh yes He is able to do that"

God convicts the heart of the lost, enables them to choose and when they choose repentance - He then grants it.

So it's the work of God in the heart of the penitent, but it's often a vain and fruitless act of God.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

What is really going on here, which I am wrestling with, is that the epistles are a follow on to the Old Testament. The Old Testament reads as if free will is just a given. I just read the second half of the David and Bathsheba incident last night. There is no way that from David, Bathsheba, Uriah, and Joab's perspectives that they would ever say that there is no free will. Also I am down to only two verses holding up OSAS: Hebrews 10:14 and Ephesians 1:13-14. That's it after going through like thirty in support of OSAS and obliterating them with time spent in the Old Testament. As I read more of the Old Testament now, I realize that I must use it to understand later revelation and not the other way around. God will reveal more over the Ages, but He is not going to tempt us or deceive us with earlier revelation. We can very easily deceive ourselves reading the bible backwards.

There are many more. Here are a few..
Ephesians 4:30, Jude 1:24, John 5:24, Romans 8:38-39, John 10:28-30,

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren..* Note, this means that when people get saved, God WILL conform them to the image of Christ whether by their obedience to His perfect will or by His chastening and scourging. Read the following.........

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


Please understand that once you become a "son" of God, you are now his progeny and that can never change. I myself, have two sons. When they misbehaved, I "chastened" them and "scourged" them with a switch on their behinds, but no matter what they did, they are still my sons and that can never change. I didn't spank other people's sons: just mine. It is the same with God. What I'm trying to tell you here is that "sonship" is permanent, and this is another confirmation of "OSAS" in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

What is really going on here, which I am wrestling with, is that the epistles are a follow on to the Old Testament. The Old Testament reads as if free will is just a given.

Agreed.

I just read the second half of the David and Bathsheba incident last night. There is no way that from David, Bathsheba, Uriah, and Joab's perspectives that they would ever say that there is no free will.

Also agreed. And this fits perfectly with what we find in Matthew 18, Ezek 18, Isaiah 5:4, Romans 11, 1 Cor 9:23-27, Romans 2:5-16... etc

Also I am down to only two verses holding up OSAS: Hebrews 10:14 and Ephesians 1:13-14. That's it after going through like thirty in support of OSAS and obliterating them with time spent in the Old Testament.

Point 1 -- this is "infinite God" we are talking about.


Romans 4:17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

Question -- WHEN did God say "a father of many nations I HAVE made you" ?? Before or After the birth of Isaac or a single nation had arisen from Abraham??

same is true in Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 regarding Lucifer the "Cherub who covers" and stands in the presence of God - He said "I HAVE destroyed you"

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.



Point 2
OK so keeping that in mind "God calls those things which do not exist as though they did; " -- first Heb 10:14

Heb 10: "14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." NKJV

Robertson's Word Pictures of the NT
He hath perfected (teteleiwken). Perfect active indicative of teleiow. He has done what the old sacrifices failed to do (verse Psalms 1 ). Them that are sanctified (tou agiazomenou). Articular participle (accusative case) present passive of agiazw (note perfect in verse Psalms 10 ) either because of the process still going on or because of the repetition in so many persons as in Psalms 2:11 .

Heb 10:1-4
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Context is everything in exegesis. vs 1 "make perfect" is in the context of vs 4 "take away sins" and the argument is that animal blood sacrifice could not do it. There is no benefit in animal blood when it comes to taking away sins. Only the shed blood of Christ could do it. The forgiven saint stands before God complete in Christ - sins forgiven.

(Yet of course both Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in Matthew 17 in glory BEFORE the cross --- fully forgiven by the God who "calls those things that are not as though they are)" - He is not limited by the sequence of time unfolding.

But when that person turns to sin - chooses a life of sin - as Ezek 18 points out (and as Matt 18) then even though we have the true statement of Mathew 18 "I forgave you all that debt" . Yet there is the "forgiveness revoked" that follows as Christ said "SO SHALL My Father do to each one of you"... when He said "SO shall" what is it that He is saying that will will done "just SO - just as you see it done in that parable"? It is... forgiveness revoked!

It is the Atonement model of the Bible - as we see in Lev 16 that includes BOTH the work of Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice" completed once for all at the cross as 1 John 2:2 points out (NIV).. but also the "main point" work of Christ we see in Hebrews 8:1-2 and Lev 16 - the work of High Priest - applying the benefits of that once-for-all sacrifice "in real time" for those who come boldly to the throne of Grace to receive help.. accepting Christ, confessing sin.

"IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to forgive us... I write that you sin not - but if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father" 1John 1:9 - 1John 2;2

 

[BobRyan]

l. Also I am down to only two verses holding up OSAS: Hebrews 10:14 and Ephesians 1:13-14. That's it after going through like thirty in support of OSAS and obliterating them with time spent in the Old Testament. .

So having posted on Hebrews 10:14 -- let's look at Eph 1:13-14

Eph 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. NASB


The Spirit of "promise" the "pledge" of our inheritance. Sealed in Christ with the Spirit of promise. What promise?

The Spirit causes us to be born again at the moment of conversion - past tense. The promise and pledge is a reference to something future.

Hebrews 11:
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Phil 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded:

 

[Yeshua1]

So having posted on Hebrews 10:14 -- let's look at Eph 1:13-14

Eph 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. NASB


The Spirit of "promise" the "pledge" of our inheritance. Sealed in Christ with the Spirit of promise. What promise?

The Spirit causes us to be born again at the moment of conversion - past tense. The promise and pledge is a reference to something future.

Hebrews 11:
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Phil 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded:

The sealing from/of the Holy Spirit means that God has stated that we will have and keep eternal life , as thats eal cannot ever be broken!

 

[BobRyan]

The sealing from/of the Holy Spirit means that God has stated that we will have and keep eternal life , as thats eal cannot ever be broken!

Interesting... may I quote "you"?

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

So it's the work of God in the heart of the penitent, but it's often a vain and fruitless act of God.

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN - and His own received Him not"

Ezek 33: 10 “Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

 

[Yeshua1]

Interesting... may I quote "you"?

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul was addressing there the destiny of the saved and the lost, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN - and His own received Him not"

Ezek 33: 10 “Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Jesus was referring here to the spiritual rotten fruit of israel, as their spiritual leaders were not saved, and were teaching other to get as lost as they were!

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus was referring here to the spiritual rotten fruit of israel,

So then they were "His OWN" -- the His "OWN" that He came to ... yet still they were so awful as lost people - that even God could not change them via all the power that Calvinism would assert for God??

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul was addressing there the destiny of the saved and the lost, correct?

He is speaking of "the day on which according to my GOSPEL God will judge" -- vs 16.

He was stating that in all of time the difference between the two groups (lost vs saved) is just as stated in the text between vs 5 and vs 16.

Which is the Arminian model for it ... not the Calvinist one.

 

[Yeshua1]

So then they were "His OWN" -- the His "OWN" that He came to ... yet still they were so awful as lost people - that even God could not change them via all the power that Calvinism would assert for God??

His own received him not, the fellow jews, why> They would rather stay in darkness than come to His light, so were lost!

 

[Yeshua1]

He is speaking of "the day on which according to my GOSPEL God will judge" -- vs 16.

He was stating that in all of time the difference between the two groups (lost vs saved) is just as stated in the text between vs 5 and vs 16.

Which is the Arminian model for it ... not the Calvinist one.

How we live our lives though will NOT determine saved or lost, correct?

 

[BobRyan]

How we live our lives though will NOT determine saved or lost, correct?

Is this you quoting Romans 2:5-16 or just wishful thinking being expressed??

I prefer an actual quote of the text if you are talking about doctrine. (Protestant reformation and all)

 

[BobRyan]

His own received him not, the fellow jews, why> They would rather stay in darkness than come to His light, so were lost!

And that spirit of the lost person "overpowered God" according to Calvinism??

How many lost people - are "Godly obedient and loving children of God" ?? According to Romans 8:4-9

 

[Yeshua1]

And that spirit of the lost person "overpowered God" according to Calvinism??

How many lost people - are "Godly obedient and loving children of God" ?? According to Romans 8:4-9

Nope, as the Calvinists hold that sinner always will keep on rejecting the Spirit, as they prefer to stay in sin and darkness!