Counsel Wanted for My Theological Conclusions

[Steven Yeadon]

In the example of the various kinds of seed and ground - the "seed springs to life" then is choked out. There is nothing there about "springs to life and so no possibility of dying" in that illustration.

So also in Matthew 18 in the "forgiveness revoked" example the statement is made "I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me..." and then the command given to return all the former debt. Nothing there about "I forgave you all that debt so no chance that it will be returned to you".

In Romans 11 you have the statement "you stand only by your faith" followed by "you should fear for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either" - in its appeal for "perseverance".

All of these - and many more like them appeal to the already forgiven, already saved, already born-again saint to "persevere" arguing that failure to do so would be to lose their state. For example they would become "severed from Christ, fallen from grace" as we see in Galatians 5.

The lost cannot "fall" -- they are already fallen.

Interpreting the parable of the sower is the crux of the whole matter to me. Those plants are all believers when first given the Gospel. Their races of faith fail in most cases though. The ones with shallow root seem to lack a heartfelt faith and fall away when the going gets tough. The believers choked by weeds also seem to lack genuine faith and let the world rob them of salvation in exchange for a good life in this world. The thing is am I interpreting this wrong? Do these people lack a genuine faith or are they Spirit filled believers gone astray to hell? I believe it is the former now given Ephesians 1:13-14 and Hebrews 10:14. The problem is not that these people are genuine and fell away, but that they were never genuine in the first place and testing revealed this.

 

[Yeshua1]

The first 3 were not ever saved, and the last one was, as evidenced by them producing a ripe harvest!

 

[BobRyan]

Interpreting the parable of the sower is the crux of the whole matter to me. Those plants are all believers when first given the Gospel. Their races of faith fail in most cases though. The ones with shallow root seem to lack a heartfelt faith and fall away when the going gets tough. The believers choked by weeds also seem to lack genuine faith and let the world rob them of salvation in exchange for a good life in this world. The thing is am I interpreting this wrong? Do these people lack a genuine faith or are they Spirit filled believers gone astray to hell? I believe it is the former now given Ephesians 1:13-14 and Hebrews 10:14. The problem is not that these people are genuine and fell away, but that they were never genuine in the first place and testing revealed this.

The problem is that the parable is not warning lost people not to become "lost-er". There is almost no focus at all in the Bible about being the best lost person you can be... or about springing to life as one kind of lost person only to later fail and fall back into being your original sort of lost person

If the entire context is "better or best ways to be lost" the parable loses its entire meaning.

The entire argument that "someone is lost" in the parable is that they later die... or later are choked out.

But if your claim that they never were saved to start with is true - then even if they did not get choked or die - they would still be lost because you have defined even their best state as "still lost ... not yet born again". That does not work at all in the parable.

You cannot fail to persevere in doing something that you never did to start with.

The person that climbs the mountain can fall from it... but the person that never climbed at all - cannot fall from the mountain.

 

[BobRyan]

The first 3 were not ever saved, and the last one was, as evidenced by them producing a ripe harvest!

That is a self-conflicted statement

IF the "evidence" for the first 3 "never saved" is that they failed to "remain in the state" of the 4th one that never fell -- then the 4th one is "persevering" in one of the unsaved states of the first 3 and not failing to persevere in remaining in that state like the others did.

I.E. a self-contradicting statement is required to say that the evidence against the first 3 ever being saved at all -- is that they failed to remain and persevere in the state that the 4th person was in.

It is like saying "you never went to Nebraska if you go to Nebraska and then return to your home state after a few years"

I see a lot of people trying to make that case.. but they never resolve the fact that there is no such thing. It is false on the face of it.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I'm back and my power is now on. I still have lots of cleaning up to do after the hurricane though. As for my previous thread, I do believe now that OSAS does not work with even limited choice. Thus, this is where I currently stand with my own beliefs due to my research of the bible and the need to be logically consistent. Of course, these beliefs still need to go through the crucible and to be honest I am not fully convinced by them:

• Although man is fallen, he is not entirely incapacitated by the sinful nature and can choose to put faith in Jesus Christ. However, his sinful nature before being given a new heart and new spirit greatly incapacitates his ability to do and understand the good.
• God makes a plea to all men that they repent, put faith in Jesus, and be saved.
• Jesus bore the sin of all mankind, but not everyone will want Jesus as their king. As a result, many will be rejected who Jesus died for.
• The grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
• A person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

This almost makes me a straight Arminian, but I do not believe in something as hokey as God looked ahead to see who would love Him. I try to avoid defining how the Lord's foreknowledge works, as His ways are unimaginably higher than mine.

Please counsel me on these views so that I may be sharpened.

I did get one challenge from TCassidy to these views in my last thread and I decided to include that challenge and my response in this thread.

TCassidy Said:

You can't have it both ways. If you admit even a tiny work then your grace is made null and void.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.​

Steven Yeadon Replied:

That is a clever retort using two verses I did not know about.

That said, I have done some research and thought for a little on your argument.

1. Here I will reference (Romans 4:1-8). These verses show that Paul does not regard faith as a work, but in fact he contrasts faith with works throughout this passage. A passage in the same letter as the two verses you use. He answers an important question I have about Abraham that I formulated after wrestling with the verses you used. That question is: did Abraham's faith earn him standing before God? The answer is clearly no in (Romans 4:2-3), even though he believed God and it was imputed to him as righteousness.

2. The broader context of (Romans 11:1-12) speaks to the Israelites being hardened so that grace could come to the gentiles, but in verses 11-12 we are told that this is not necessarily meant to be a permanent stumbling as how great would it be to fully include an envious Israel with the gentiles.

The shocking thing is I believe I know from my research why the original Arminians concluded that this was a biblical position, as they formulated their five points before Calvin did, who responded to their perceived heresy. This is one of only two comprehensive view points on these issues that seem to work at biblical exegesis. The other viewpoint being Calvinism.​

You will find solid Bible support for your first four bullet-points. The last one on a truly saved person being able to "lose their salvation", is not that simple, as there are very strong texts in the Bible for both arguments. I personally hold that it is not possible for a "born-again, Spirit filled Christian" to be "eternally damned".

 

[Steven Yeadon]

You will find solid Bible support for your first four bullet-points. The last one on a truly saved person being able to "lose their salvation", is not that simple, as there are very strong texts in the Bible for both arguments. I personally hold that it is not possible for a "born-again, Spirit filled Christian" to be "eternally damned".

I later updated the points after discussion with members:

• Man's will is sinful and he cannot do good deeds that are considered anything more than filthy rags to the Lord.
• God makes a plea to the world through His convicting Spirit that they repent, put faith in Jesus, and be saved. This supernatural conviction allows people to choose to put faith in Jesus the Christ.
• Jesus bore the sin of all mankind, but not everyone will want Jesus as their king. As a result, many will be rejected who Jesus died for.
• The grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
• "Born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers are eternally secure because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. However, the bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear over what it would mean to prove false.

It also seems to me that in the New Testament you had to endure testing, which would prove yourself in the faith, and thus let everyone see clearly if you were written in the Lamb's Book of Life by your deeds. But, all along it was a given whether you would endure or not, because the new Spirit and new heart you were given testified to whether you had heartfelt faith or not.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just accept that Jesus knows the answer here on this issue, as He plainly stated that ALL whom he saved will be raised up by Him, and NONE will be lost!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The problem is that the parable is not warning lost people not to become "lost-er". There is almost no focus at all in the Bible about being the best lost person you can be... or about springing to life as one kind of lost person only to later fail and fall back into being your original sort of lost person

If the entire context is "better or best ways to be lost" the parable loses its entire meaning.

The entire argument that "someone is lost" in the parable is that they later die... or later are choked out.

But if your claim that they never were saved to start with is true - then even if they did not get choked or die - they would still be lost because you have defined even their best state as "still lost ... not yet born again". That does not work at all in the parable.

You cannot fail to persevere in doing something that you never did to start with.

The person that climbs the mountain can fall from it... but the person that never climbed at all - cannot fall from the mountain.

I like your lines of argument. However, can you speak to another, deeper concern I have about all this? Do you think OSAS makes those with shallow faith or who abandon the Kingdom for the world feel as if they have a guarantee to get into heaven? The one thing I find most tragic and rage inspiring about the church is that those with shallow faith or a love of the world over the Kingdom keep being told their sins are forgiven past, present, and future. What could you say to this? And how does your belief system prevent this? Lastly, is OSAS doomed to make this mistake in your opinion?

 

[Yeshua1]

I like your lines of argument. However, can you speak to another, deeper concern I have about all this? Do you think OSAS makes those with shallow faith or who abandon the Kingdom for the world feel as if they have a guarantee to get into heaven? The one thing I find most tragic and rage inspiring about the church is that those with shallow faith or a love of the world over the Kingdom keep being told their sins are forgiven past, present, and future. What could you say to this? And how does your belief system prevent this? Lastly, is OSAS doomed to make this mistake in your opinion?

Jesus saving you is not like Him being a fire insurance policy, as He now is into all areas of your life!
There is where eternal rewards come into play, for those saved who neglect their gifts and calling will lose out when rewards are measured.
I would really recommend just Google online the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and take time to compare that to the scriptures listed in the bible as references!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Jesus saving you is not like Him being a fire insurance policy, as He now is into all areas of your life!
There is where eternal rewards come into play, for those saved who neglect their gifts and calling will lose out when rewards are measured.
I would really recommend just Google online the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and take time to compare that to the scriptures listed in the bible as references!

I found it and have started to read it.

 

[Yeshua1]

I found it and have started to read it.

Just take your time, and look up the scriptures being referenced!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Jesus saving you is not like Him being a fire insurance policy, as He now is into all areas of your life!
There is where eternal rewards come into play, for those saved who neglect their gifts and calling will lose out when rewards are measured.
I would really recommend just Google online the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and take time to compare that to the scriptures listed in the bible as references!

The main problem with this "confession", is that it is heavily biased with its Reformed/Calvinistic theology, much of which is not really Scripture grounded, even though it gives Bible texts, they do not represent what the Bible actually teaches!

 

[BobRyan]

I like your lines of argument. However, can you speak to another, deeper concern I have about all this? Do you think OSAS makes those with shallow faith or who abandon the Kingdom for the world feel as if they have a guarantee to get into heaven?

Yes in the case of the Arminian Baptist and the 4 point Calvinist - because all they need to do is be convinced that in some year in the past they actually were truly converted and born again. Once that is done -- the game is over. Nothing else matters.

And as a non-Baptist Arminian - I know for certain that a great many people were in fact saved/born-again in the past that are not necessarily going to "persevere firm unto the end". This means the group of "at some time ever in the past - were born again" is very large as compared to "currently in a born-again saving relationship with Christ".

The one thing I find most tragic and rage inspiring about the church is that those with shallow faith or a love of the world over the Kingdom keep being told their sins are forgiven past, present, and future. What could you say to this?

The answer to that one is "atonement". The means for forgiveness in the Bible is based on the "Atonement model" not on the "grocery store model" that many people use today. Under the Atonement model you come to God - confess and claim the blood sacrifice for very specific sins.

Under the grocery store model - once your groceries are paid for - the grocer has no more say in the matter. You can go out to a land fill and dump all your groceries in the dump -- and its ok -- they are yours -- no chance that the Grocer is going to follow you around - disapprove of what you did with groceries and then take them back. After all "he got paid" and that is all that was needed

And how does your belief system prevent this?

But in the Bible's "atonement model' -- "God so loved that HE GAVE" not "that HE got PAID". In other words - 'God gets tortured' as the "payment". Thus God has every right to determine the "conditions" under which someone retains that blood-bought-payment. And so when Christ said "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive others" in Matthew 18 speaking of the "Forgiveness Revoked" example -- He meant it.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" you have BOTH - the "Atoning Sacrifice" which of course is full and complete at the cross 1 John 2:2. but you also have the work of Christ as High Priest - which in Hebrew 8:1 "is the main point" BOTH are needed for the entire bible scope of Atonement to be complete. And as Hebrews 9 reminds us - that work of High Priest and atonement is going on the Heavenly Sanctuary - right now for us! We come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in time of need .We walk with Christ -- "through the spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as Paul points out in Romans 8.

1 Cor 9 Paul says he buffets his body and makes it his slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others - he himself should be disqualified from the Gospel after "having done all things FOR the Gospel".

Lastly, is OSAS doomed to make this mistake in your opinion?

The Baptist-Arminian form and the 4-Point Calvinist form are mostly doomed to going over that cliff and only the grace of God can prevent it.

But there is a 3 and 5 Point Calvinist version of OSAS that takes the other route. Those guys say that if you fail to persevere 20 years from today at some point -- then all the assurance you think you have today - is no assurance at all. It is nothin'.

THAT is a huge leap the opposite direction! And it is inside the context of a flavor of OSAS!

 

[BobRyan]

I would really recommend just Google online the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and take time to compare that to the scriptures listed in the bible as references!

Particularly section 19.

And then get the expanded version authored by Spurgeon -- read that section 19 very carefully. A good teaching can be found there on the Law and the Gospel.

 

[Yeshua1]

The main problem with this "confession", is that it is heavily biased with its Reformed/Calvinistic theology, much of which is not really Scripture grounded, even though it gives Bible texts, they do not represent what the Bible actually teaches!

They indeed do represent what the scriptures teach though.

 

[Yeshua1]

Particularly section 19.

And then get the expanded version authored by Spurgeon -- read that section 19 very carefully. A good teaching can be found there on the Law and the Gospel.

he held very strongly to saved by grace alone, faith alone though!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes in the case of the Arminian Baptist and the 4 point Calvinist - because all they need to do is be convinced that in some year in the past they actually were truly converted and born again. Once that is done -- the game is over. Nothing else matters.

And as a non-Baptist Arminian - I know for certain that a great many people were in fact saved/born-again in the past that are not necessarily going to "persevere firm unto the end". This means the group of "at some time ever in the past - were born again" is very large as compared to "currently in a born-again saving relationship with Christ".




The answer to that one is "atonement". The means for forgiveness in the Bible is based on the "Atonement model" not on the "grocery store model" that many people use today. Under the Atonement model you come to God - confess and claim the blood sacrifice for very specific sins.

Under the grocery store model - once your groceries are paid for - the grocer has no more say in the matter. You can go out to a land fill and dump all your groceries in the dump -- and its ok -- they are yours -- no chance that the Grocer is going to follow you around - disapprove of what you did with groceries and then take them back. After all "he got paid" and that is all that was needed



But in the Bible's "atonement model' -- "God so loved that HE GAVE" not "that HE got PAID". In other words - 'God gets tortured' as the "payment". Thus God has every right to determine the "conditions" under which someone retains that blood-bought-payment. And so when Christ said "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive others" in Matthew 18 speaking of the "Forgiveness Revoked" example -- He meant it.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" you have BOTH - the "Atoning Sacrifice" which of course is full and complete at the cross 1 John 2:2. but you also have the work of Christ as High Priest - which in Hebrew 8:1 "is the main point" BOTH are needed for the entire bible scope of Atonement to be complete. And as Hebrews 9 reminds us - that work of High Priest and atonement is going on the Heavenly Sanctuary - right now for us! We come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in time of need .We walk with Christ -- "through the spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as Paul points out in Romans 8.

1 Cor 9 Paul says he buffets his body and makes it his slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others - he himself should be disqualified from the Gospel after "having done all things FOR the Gospel".






The Baptist-Arminian form and the 4-Point Calvinist form are mostly doomed to going over that cliff and only the grace of God can prevent it.

But there is a 3 and 5 Point Calvinist version of OSAS that takes the other route. Those guys say that if you fail to persevere 20 years from today at some point -- then all the assurance you think you have today - is no assurance at all. It is nothin'.

THAT is a huge leap the opposite direction! And it is inside the context of a flavor of OSAS!

And as a non-Baptist Arminian - I know for certain that a great many people were in fact saved/born-again in the past that are not necessarily going to "persevere firm unto the end". This means the group of "at some time ever in the past - were born again" is very large as compared to "currently in a born-again saving relationship with Christ".




The answer to that one is "atonement". The means for forgiveness in the Bible is based on the "Atonement model" not on the "grocery store model" that many people use today. Under the Atonement model you come to God - confess and claim the blood sacrifice for very specific sins.

Under the grocery store model - once your groceries are paid for - the grocer has no more say in the matter. You can go out to a land fill and dump all your groceries in the dump -- and its ok -- they are yours -- no chance that the Grocer is going to follow you around - disapprove of what you did with groceries and then take them back. After all "he got paid" and that is all that was needed



But in the Bible's "atonement model' -- "God so loved that HE GAVE" not "that HE got PAID". In other words - 'God gets tortured' as the "payment". Thus God has every right to determine the "conditions" under which someone retains that blood-bought-payment. And so when Christ said "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive others" in Matthew 18 speaking of the "Forgiveness Revoked" example -- He meant it.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" you have BOTH - the "Atoning Sacrifice" which of course is full and complete at the cross 1 John 2:2. but you also have the work of Christ as High Priest - which in Hebrew 8:1 "is the main point" BOTH are needed for the entire bible scope of Atonement to be complete. And as Hebrews 9 reminds us - that work of High Priest and atonement is going on the Heavenly Sanctuary - right now for us! We come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in time of need .We walk with Christ -- "through the spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as Paul points out in Romans 8.

1 Cor 9 Paul says he buffets his body and makes it his slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others - he himself should be disqualified from the Gospel after "having done all things FOR the Gospel".






The Baptist-Arminian form and the 4-Point Calvinist form are mostly doomed to going over that cliff and only the grace of God can prevent it.

But there is a 3 and 5 Point Calvinist version of OSAS that takes the other route. Those guys say that if you fail to persevere 20 years from today at some point -- then all the assurance you think you have today - is no assurance at all. It is nothin'.

THAT is a huge leap the opposite direction! And it is inside the context of a flavor of OSAS![/QUOTE

Jesus stated that NONE that he ever saved would get lost and unsaved, correct?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

They indeed do represent what the scriptures teach though.

Well, for the first four points of "Calvinism", they do not.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, for the first four points of "Calvinism", they do not.

They do indeed, but that all depends on how we see the scriptures describing things such as the Fall, free will, salvation, spiritaul condition !

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

They do indeed, but that all depends on how we see the scriptures describing things such as the Fall, free will, salvation, spiritaul condition !

it also depends on how the Scriptures are used, or misused!