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What do Monergism and Synergism mean and why are they important?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Oct 13, 2017.

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  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    These conversions would be inconsistent with most of the arguments for free will that I have read on this board. They would be consistent with the Monergist position. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps what you are hinting at is that God makes exceptions even though the biblical model (according to free will proponents) is free will before regeneration? If so, then we can't stop at "exceptions" like JTB, Paul, or Mary; we have to extend it to Joseph, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah et. al. And since God shows no partiality (Romans 2:11-16), how can we limit His exceptions just to noted biblical figures? Regeneration before belief/faith should apply to all. Regeneration before belief/faith is the Monergist position.

    It just so happens that I sat under a lecture by the late Dr. Charles Ryrie a number of years back. He was asked a question along the lines of, "If the Calvinist view of predestination and election is wrong, how do we reconcile God using some of the most famous people in the Bible? It doesn't look like all of them had a choice." Dr. Ryrie's answer was very interesting and refreshingly honest. He said that there were only three possible answers to the question. 1. A free will choice, while not clearly explained, is implied because the theological position [free will] demands consistency. 2. The Calvinist view is correct. 3. It is a mystery, but one on shaky ground, because there is no warrant in Scripture. Dr. Ryrie said that #1 was the only choice he could make and be honest with his doctrinal convictions. What was honest about Dr. Ryrie's answer was that he remained consistent with his theological convictions. He recognized the difficulty presented by all three answers but chose the one he believed in most. If he chose #2 then...well...I think we know how that would have gone


    Isn't that a given for any opinion expressed on this board? And while it is my opinion, how is it free will if God violates it? I was a Synergist for neigh on 20 years. I never heard one gospel message from a free will preacher that did not emphasize the choice of the individual as being the determining factor as to their coming to faith in Christ. The late evangelist Jack Wrytzen was famous for the following appeal that he gave at every invitation, "If you can't stand up for God here, surrounded by all these people, you'll never be able to stand for him anywhere!" Jerry Falwell used to preach similarly. I am not saying there are free will preachers that don't misspeak or make exceptions, but it is not the norm.

    Those are free will hallmarks, not Monergist ones. To be consistent free will believers need to remember this.

    I totally agree.
     
    #41 Reformed, Oct 13, 2017
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You two have posted on here for years and no one can describe what you
    believe except it is not close to the truth.
    Both of you are vague and evasive. State clearly and biblically what you believe.
     
    #42 Iconoclast, Oct 13, 2017
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Man up mitchell...answer a post for a change. Stop this elusive double talk.
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Oct 13, 2017
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Reformed,

    . For instance "those who believe that God first draws the individual, and then the individual has to choose of their own free will whether to accept or reject the gospel" believe that man has to believe of his own free will to accept the offer of salvation. God will not force His will on the sinner. I have not met anyone from the "those who believe that God first draws the individual, and then the individual has to choose of their own free will whether to accept or reject the gospel" camp who rejects the need for the sinner to believe of His own free will or that God will not assault the human will.

    Yet at prayer meeting these same persons will ask God to save their family and friends???
     
    #44 Iconoclast, Oct 13, 2017
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  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I never understood that. It is blatantly inconsistent with the free will position.
     
    #45 Reformed, Oct 13, 2017
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    He was spot on and truthful with his comments. you never answer and probably post less scripture than Y1.
     
    #46 Iconoclast, Oct 13, 2017
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  7. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

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    Not going to lie. That made me laugh. It's no secret what I believe, and I've even posted in depth what I believe before, a few times. I even outlined it again in a PM to TCassidy today. But for your sake, I'll post it again right here.

    I believe that man cannot just choose to come to Christ any time he chooses. I believe that there must be a drawing of the Holy Spirit in which the person realizes they are a sinner destined for hell, and their only hope is the savior.

    At that point is when their choice is made. They can either give in to the Holy Spirit's call and accept Christ, or deny Him. I believe that God is long suffering, so some people may get several chances for this.

    I believe that salvation is all of God, and the only thing He requires of us on our end is simply to "Give In". I believe that God, in His sovreinty, could force any and all to bend to His will. I believe He could save some and leave some of He wanted.

    But I believe that His plan was to receive complete Glory in allowing man the choice, making each decision for Christ a pure and sweet victory, rather than a forced outcome.

    I believe that God is showing Satan (much like in Job), that despite Satan running the show on Earth currently, that there will always be a remnant who will choose God, regardless of the attempts of Satan to stamp it out.

    So, is that clear enough of a statement of what I believe?

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
     
    #47 Sapper Woody, Oct 13, 2017
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  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Very clear. But "I believe that salvation is all of God, and the only thing He requires of us on our end is simply to 'Give In.'" seems to me be saying that man must cooperate with God for salvation. Am I misunderstanding?
     
    #48 rsr, Oct 13, 2017
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see we are on page 3, with the Cals defining all the terms, and looking at the issues through their presuppositions. And then we can toss in a bunch of ad homenim posts whose purpose is to disparage.

    Lets back up to God making conditional covenants, i.e. if you repent, I will relent. Since God establishes the conditional, and determines who, if anyone, meets the condition, God's action is monergistic. God does not need for anyone to repent, and repenting does not cause God to rely upon man. A conditional covenant does not mean God is not all powerful.

    On the other hand, you will see posts where Cals claim if God does not compel the repent, God is depending on man's actions.
    Such is the absurdity of their argument.

    God has mercy on whom He has mercy, and if God chooses to have mercy on those whose faith He has credited as righteousness, that salvation is monergistic. For salvation does not depend on the person who wills, but on God having mercy. Thus the Cal argument has once again been shown to be unbiblical and unstudied.
     
    #49 Van, Oct 13, 2017
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sapper Woody,

    Hello SW
    Thanks for your reply.If it is okay...can I ask a few questions for clarification?
    Laughing is good...keeps us from taking ourselves to seriously...

    Thanks, lets take a look;

    Why Not? Can you biblically describe where we are told he cannot come? what prevents him from coming?

    How does this drawing work? If the person did not want to come, as you said...he cannot.....what changes where he can come?

    What point?
    Are you saying that the person changes apart from any supernatural work?
    In what way were they drawn?

    Is your idea of drawing....that somehow they get a little more information?

    The scripture says the natural man...cannot understand, yet you have him
    realizing his condition.

    What has changed?
    How is the natural man....able to do this in the strength of his fallen nature?


    God is longsuffering as He is not willing that any he purposed to save, be lost.

    ,

    Ok...good, but in what way is it all of God? Only the Part where Jesus goes to the cross?

    I am not sure where we get this idea presented scripturally?
    If the man must "give in" Does he do it? God is a spectator who has to wait for ,an to do something?
    When it says in Acts 16...Lydia...whose heart the LORD opened....how do you break that down? how did she "give in?"

    where does scripture use the language of possibility? where does it say He forces anyone?I am pressing the language here to be more specific.

    SW....Do you believe God is a Covenant making and Covenant keeping God?...you say could??? When he promised Abraham....was it actual or only potential?
    5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

    6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


    ,

    Do you have scriptures that teach this?

    A victory for who? who is forced?
    Again why does the remnant choose God?


    it helps, but I need clarification. I understand what you are suggesting, but cannot connect the dots so far,,,

    Take your time, but it would be helpful if you could walk me through this a bit.
     
    #50 Iconoclast, Oct 13, 2017
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    trying to force your Godcrediting man idea will not bring clarity...
     
    #51 Iconoclast, Oct 13, 2017
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    How much Church History do you know? It sounds like you can only go back to the D. L. Moody era.

    Labels are used for convenience. Must every label be fleshed out? Most folks somewhat familiar with Historical Theology to some extent know what's behind the labels.
     
    #52 Rippon, Oct 13, 2017
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  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You are not misunderstanding. If man must do anything in the salvation process, then the process is a cooperative process. I wrote in a previous thread that this cooperation does not need to in equal parts, it just has to exist to be real. So, if God brings the sinner 98% towards regeneration, but the sinner has to bring the other 2% through faith, that is a cooperative act even though the parts are not equal. If you are building a shed but ask me to help you with a hanging the front door, you asked me to cooperate with you in the building of the shed. Sure. You may have done 90% of the work, but you didn't do it all. I can rightly claim that I worked alongside you, or cooperated with you, in building the shed.
     
    #53 Reformed, Oct 13, 2017
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I want to comment more on this.

    A friend of mine recently wrote the following:

    The strange part about all this? Many Synergists will deny what they actually profess in order to avoid any characterization that places their belief system in a negative light. The Latin phrase my friend quoted "Le orandi, lex credenda" roughly means "the law of praying [is] the law of believing". Another way of saying it, "as a man prays, so he is". For instance, if a man privately prays for God to save someone, the man is a Monergist whether he admits it or not. If he was consistent in his theology he would not ask God to violate free will.
     
    #54 Reformed, Oct 14, 2017
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  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    If the receiver of the gift must reach out and take the gift from the giver is the receiver of the gift also the giver of the gift?
     
    #55 Revmitchell, Oct 14, 2017
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Where did saving faith come from, and unless the Holy Spirit enables a sinner to receive Jesus, will and can they on their own?
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Oct 14, 2017
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    2 big questions to answer, as these will determine which camp we are in on this issue...
    How much did the fall affect us now, and what is biblical free will?
     
    #57 Yeshua1, Oct 14, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What if the person being given the free gift cannot freely respond to that offer though?
    I say here it is, but you are deaf/dumb/ and blind?
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Oct 14, 2017
  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The Fall resulted in all of Adam's posterity being born in a state of sin, and at enmity with God from birth. We are sinners for two reasons. 1. We are sinners because we are born in sin, due to Adam being our federal head and acting as our fair and just representative. 2. We are sinners because we sin.

    Biblical free will is an imprecise term. While sinners, the human will is in bondage to sin. Once regeneration takes place the human will is freed from its bondage to sin. It then is able to freely choose Christ. That choice is not optional. It is better said that the will of the regenerated individual will trust in Christ.
     
    #59 Reformed, Oct 14, 2017
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I fully agree with you, was just suggesting that those 2 answers will determine if one is which of those 2 positions!
     
    #60 Yeshua1, Oct 14, 2017
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