Featured Who Did Jesus Christ Say He Came To Save?

I saw "The Man of La Mancha" on Broadway. It was tremendous.

 

I used to be very strongly anti-Calvinist. I discovered there is Biblical support for that perspective. I believe there is also Biblical support for not accepting the reformed beliefs. I've come to the conclusion that this is a mystery which not really that important. It comes down to the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. However, it still is very difficult for me to accept limited atonement. On the other hand, Calvinists put more of an emphasis on perseverance which I do believe in (from either perspective).

Personally, I have chosen to live my life as if I do have to make a personal decision whether to accept salvation offered freely by Grace through Faith and also believe that all true converts will be distinguished by their fruit and will persevere until the end.

 

I haven't read this entire thread, so my apologies if someone already provided an answer.

Salvation is of the Lord. No human will is involved. There is no scripture in the Bible that says we are saved by our own will. Paul says we are saved by grace.

Here are a few more verses for you to consider.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


God Speed

 

Where does belief come from? Where does faith come from? Where does grace come from?

 

I'll bite. You are wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. Nevertheless, that's not cause to be uncharitable. You seem angry, are you? Perhaps I'm misreading you.

 

Who are you accusing and of what?

 

All from God Himself!

 

I would guess Reformed/Calvinists?

 

Indeed! Salvation is completely of the Lord.

 

I am so glad it is, would NOT want to see salvation as man woudl set it up as being!

 

Jesus came to save sinners, to seek and to save that which is lost.

 

"Who Did Jesus Christ Say He Came To Save?"

Answer: Matthew 1:21 (KJV)
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The world is NOT His people.

 

Who did Jesus Himself say He came to save?

" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ( John 3:14-18 )

Jesus said that "whosoever believes" in Him should not perish...they will be saved from perishing in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:15 ).

I once thought this meant, "whosoever believes He is who He says He is."
Wow, was I wrong.

I've since come to understand that the phrase "in Him" means, "placed within the body of Christ"...not someone who believes in the factual Jesus Christ of the Bible. I personally know of many people who believe that there is a Jesus Christ, and that He is the Son of God ( Matthew 27:54, Mark 15:39 ), yet they do not trust in Him. I personally know many who believe that there is a God, but even the demons believe, and they tremble ( James 2:19 ).
In fact, the Bible tells me that all men know who God is, including the Godhead ( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ), because they were shown this and are without excuse:

" For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" ( Romans 1:20 )

The Pharisees and the rest of the Jews acknowledged that there is a Son of God ( Matthew 26:63, Mark 14:61 ), and they were not saved ( John 8:47, John 10:26 ), which, to me, clearly shows the truth of Romans 1:20...that every single person who ever lived, inherently knows who God is. Granted, the Jews had more truth given to them ( Romans 3:2 ) than the Gentiles did, but that just makes them doubly guilty, in my estimation.

No, only those who believe, and are "in Him" should not perish, but have eternal life ( again, John 17:3 ).

So...how exactly does one get placed into the body of Christ?
By believing?
No.

By being chosen.

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. " ( Ephesians 1:3-6 )


But I digress....

Who did Jesus say He came to save?

" And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." ( Matthew 26:27-28 )

"Many"...not "all".
Wait; Isn't He the propitiation ( appeasement ) for our sins ( the believer's ), and for the sins of the whole world ( every person who ever lived and died )?
If so, then He appeased God for sins that people are going to be judged for, and cast into Hell ( Revelation 20:13-15 ).
This is a massive contradiction.
How can Christ actually appease God, and God forgive the believer and not the unbeliever?

Because they believed?
How?
How does a person whom Satan has blinded to the Gospel ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) believe?
Because it is a work of GOD to believe ( John 6:29 ) and people believe because they are ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ) and because they ARE Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ) and because they were chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )...so, if anyone believes, it's because God caused it ( Psalm 65:4 ) and it was given to a person to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ).

From my perspective, that completely strips anything a man can do, out of his hands and puts it squarely back into the hand of God.

Salvation is "of the Lord", lock, stock and barrel.




But again, I've digressed.


Part two, next.

 

" I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." ( John 10:11 )

Seems plain enough to me.

" At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light." ( Matthew 11:25-30 )

Who is Jesus speaking to in this passage?
From my perspective, all that labor against sin ( Hebrews 12:1-4 ), and are heavy laden with it ( Psalms 51 ).
No one I know, who is an unbeliever, even cares about their sins... except with respect to obeying some religious system in order to keep their hides out of Hell.

Who really cares that they've sinned against God?
Who really cares that they have offended their Creator?
Who really cares that their sin grieves them, and God?

Believers, not unbelievers.
Why?
Because their heart has been changed, that's why.

They labor against sin ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:17 ) because they care about not doing it.
Unbelievers couldn't care less, for the most part.
At least, that is my observation.

Jesus came that they might cast their burden upon Him ( Psalms 55:22, 1 Peter 5:7 ).

Who did He say He died for?
Prophecy says He was to die for the sins of His people, not the sins of all men:

" Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." ( Isaiah 53:4-11 )



Those that believe He died for all men, you may wish to examine it a little more closely, in my opinion.


Part 3, next.

 

" For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." ( Matthew 18:11 )

" For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." ( Luke 19:10 )

He came to seek and to save, "that which was lost".
What does that mean, exactly?

" These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ( Matthew 10:5-6 )

" But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ( Matthew 15:24 )


Jesus came to save His sheep...the lost sheep of the house of Israel ( Luke 15:3-7 ).

How, exactly were they "lost"?
Because the pastors under the first covenant were guilty of leading them astray:

" Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD." ( Jeremiah 23:1 )


He came to save others, as well:

" And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd." ( John 10:16 )


Who are those sheep?

" Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. " ( John 10:7-9 )

Anyone who "enters in" by Jesus Christ shall be saved.
But, that doesn't fully answer the question, does it?

Here are His sheep:

" I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." ( Romans 11:1-2 )

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." ( Romans 11:7-8 )


The elect.
Why would anyone hate this term, and attach so much resentment towards it?
To me, they would only do so if they are not elect ( and are in reality people who are trying their level best to work their way out of going to Hell, based on their own efforts ), or they find these truths to be hard to understand ( 2 Peter 3:16 ).

For to be "elect", one must be a believer.
There is no such thing, biblically, as being a believer and not being elect.
One cannot be elect, and not come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).
Many more things could be stated...

For example,
To be a believer, includes all of these:

Lively stones
Poor and needy ( in spirit ).
Chosen in Him.
Wheat
Disciples
Sheep ( not goats ).
Children of God ( not the children of the Devil ).
Beloved
Forgiven
Cleansed
Sanctified
Glorified
Predestinated
Foreknown
Cared for


Dear reader, are you a believer "in Jesus Christ"?
Do you cast yourself on the mercy of God because your sins weigh you down?
Do you love God...really love Him?
Does sin bother you the more you are stuck in it?
Do you look around at this world, and want to go to be with your Saviour?


Then be advised, He came to save you, and others like you.
He came to save His people...His sheep.
And you shall be saved.
You already possess eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ).

Be patient, and He will come; or, you will go to be with Him, in good time.



May God bless you all.

 

I am of the persuasion that Christ's death for all sinners does one of two things for them. Secure the saved and greater damn the lost.

". . . He shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.. . ." Matthew 3:11-12. Note the ". . . you . . ." is plural and refers to both saved and lost.

". . . For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.. . ." -- Romans 14:9. Note ". . . the dead and the living . . ." being understood as the lost and the saved. See v.11.
". . . But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of God. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:10-12.
Note v10 & 12 refers to us believers. But note v.11, ". . . every knee shall bow. and every tongue shall confess . . .: " can be understood to refer to all the lost and the saved. Re: v.9
.

 

His death secures for the lost/unsaved "blessings" in this present world, as in the wrath of god has been averted for now, there is some material and physical enjoyment by them, and does get them an eternal resurrected body!

 

It wasn't all that long ago when I believed that very same thing.
Before that, I believed in "Traditionalism" ( was raised in it since I first believed ), which was that Jesus died to save all men, but that their choice of him is what determines whether or not the blood is "applied" to the believer.

The more often I read, the more those both fell apart.

 

Agreed, if only because I see that there's something at work in why He does not send His Son yet:

" Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain." ( James 5:7 )

" For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." ( Romans 11:25 )

" knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ( 2 Peter 3:3-10 )


In the last days there shall come people who "scoff" ( make fun of ), and say to believers, "Where is Christ? When is His Coming?". They will say that since the fathers ( Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ) fell asleep ( passed on to be with God ), all things go the same as at the first.
But, this they are willingly ignoring...that by the word of God the heavens and earth were created long ago, and that the world perished in the Flood.
One day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is long suffering towards His children, not willing that any of them perish ( John 3:15-16, John 5:24, John 6:39, John 10:28 ).

That's what's taking so long.

Agreed, but I see a purpose in it, in addition to the above.

" And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." ( Matthew 24:14 )

Agreed.

Eh?
I'm not following.
Are you saying that unbelievers partake in an eternal, resurrected body?