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There are Some Who Believe That a Sinner Does Nothing to be Saved

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Saved-By-Grace, Mar 31, 2018.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That view seems to be geting close to what I read before, as 2 authors stated the real good news was that in death of Jesus, God reconciled all back to Himself, and its only those who refuse to get saved by actively rejecting jesus are lost. Not the Gospel!
     
  2. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Bible verses for this?
     
  3. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    the Bible verses that I have given clearly disagree with you.

    BTW, you marked "prayers" for me when I said that Iconoclast was in error by his comment, "God is very willing that they go into second death". Can you provide ONE verse from the Bible that says this? I ask this not only from you, but every person that believes this.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Hebrews states to us that Jesus died for the many, correct?
     
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  5. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    9:28? correct.

    John Calvin says on this:

    "To bear, or, take away sins, is to free from guilt by his satisfaction those who have sinned. He says the sins of many, that is, of all, as in Ro 5:15. It is yet certain that all receive no benefit from the death of Christ; but this happens, because their unbelief prevents them. At the same time this question is not to be discussed here, for the Apostle is not speaking of the few or of the many to whom the death of Christ may be available; but he simply means that he died for others and not for himself; and therefore he opposes many to one"

    And also on Mark 14:24, "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many", where Calvin says, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse". Does not sound very "Calvinistic" to me?

    I might add, that with "many", the Greek is, "τὸ πολλῶν", THE many, which means either "a very large number", or "the totality of", in which case it cannot refer to the "elect", as they will never be in the "majority", buy always in the "minority". So if you suppose this to be a verse to benefit your theology, I refer you to Mr Calvin, who gets this right.

    Robert William please note John Calvin's two comments.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvin would agree that Jesus death was sufficient to have saved all sinners, but was intended to save only those God would effectually apply it towards! Limited Atonement
     
  7. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    thats what you say Calvin believed, his own words above go much further, Re-read them very carefully.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    if Jesus death atoned for all sinners, and reconcilled them all back to God, why any ever lost?
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    41
    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Yes....looks like He is very willing that they be cast into the lake of Fire:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious



     
  10. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    The term "atonement" is not used in the NT, the others terms that are, "bought", sin-offering", "ransom", are all used for the whole human race. Look at the last on in 1 Timothy 2:6 and context (verses 1-4), where ἀντίλυτρον is used for, "what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom" (Thayer); "a ramson, price of redemption" (Bloomfield; Parkhurst); "and equivalent for redemption, a ransom" (Robinson). Where it is used for the "purchase-price paid to set free". But ONLY upon REPENTANCE. This shows beyond any doubt, that Jesus' Death is "potential" and not "actual", as He died to "offer" salvation.
     
  11. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Is this addressed to me? are you suggesting that I am not saved?
     
  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 63:1-6 NASB
    1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
    With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
    This One who is majestic in His apparel,
    Marching in the greatness of His strength?
    “It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
    2 Why is Your apparel red,
    And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
    3 “I have trodden the wine trough alone,
    And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
    I also trod them in My anger
    And trampled them in My wrath;
    And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
    And I stained all My raiment.
    4 “For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
    And My year of redemption has come.
    5 “I looked, and there was no one to help,
    And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
    So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
    And My wrath upheld Me.
    6 “I trod down the peoples in My anger
    And made them drunk in My wrath,
    And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”

    I don’t sense any reluctance from God to do what needs doing.
     
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 7:15-23 NASB
    15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
    No lack of willingness here either ... but what does God REALLY think of sinners?

    [Lev 26:30 NASB] 30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.
    [Job 9:31 NASB] 31 Yet You would plunge me into the pit, And my own clothes would abhor me.
    [Psa 5:6 NASB] 6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

    Romans 9:21-24 NASB
    21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
    Is ‘what if’ just a ‘what if’ (then why even mention it in the Bible) or is God really “willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known“?
     
    #133 atpollard, Apr 4, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
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  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Saved-By-Grace,

     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I have not suggested anything...are we a bit paranoid?

    If you did not know it, those were just a couple of verses showing God being very willing to have unsaved persons cast into hell.
     
  16. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    How you guys like to read your theological bias into Scripture that does not say anything of what you hope it does. If you can read correctly, you will see that Jesus is here speaking of "professing believers", you have "a form of godliness", but in reality live lives that show that they were never truly saved. Read 2 Peter and Jude to get a better understanding.
     
  17. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    ALL unrepentant sinners will suffer the consequences if their refusal to repent, and spend eternity in hell. This is the theme of the whole Bible. This does not say that God "desires/wills" that any sinner goes into eternal punishment. the passages from Ezekiel that I have quoted, show this not to be the case. can you deal with these Scripture references?
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    False professors are...unsaved ...also.You have no point here....
     
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  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sure I could, but why should I.
    You asked for verses from any and all Calvinists that indicate that God desires any sinner to go to Hell.
    You then reject all verses provided because they do not have the exact wording that you are looking for Calvinists to provide and respond to what we have presented with little more than ‘we don’t understand scripture and should go read your verses instead’.

    So my turn to play that game: Where is the verse that says “God cries a river of tears as he casts people into Hell”.

    I presented verses that suggest no reluctance on God’s part to punish or damn. I know of no Calvinist that thinks God chuckles with maniacal glee at damning people. I am unsure what you are looking for from Calvinists except specific verbiage that does not exist in scripture that no one claims exists in scripture.
     
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  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    So ‘I never knew you, DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS’ in Matthew 7:23 was spoken with tears of regret pouring from the cheeks of Jesus, the Righteous Judge?
     
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