There are Some Who Believe That a Sinner Does Nothing to be Saved

[Yeshua1]

If ALL humans sins have been Atoned for, then those who don't repent will enter the Kingdom, why, because as you said their sins have been Atoned for.

That view seems to be geting close to what I read before, as 2 authors stated the real good news was that in death of Jesus, God reconciled all back to Himself, and its only those who refuse to get saved by actively rejecting jesus are lost. Not the Gospel!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The holy Spirt Himself MUST grant them the faith unto belief in Jesus, and he also will produce in them godly type of repentance as a fruit of salvation.

Bible verses for this?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Bought Ransomed, that's not ALL humans as you preach.

the Bible verses that I have given clearly disagree with you.

BTW, you marked "prayers" for me when I said that Iconoclast was in error by his comment, "God is very willing that they go into second death". Can you provide ONE verse from the Bible that says this? I ask this not only from you, but every person that believes this.

 

[Yeshua1]

the Bible verses that I have given clearly disagree with you.

BTW, you marked "prayers" for me when I said that Iconoclast was in error by his comment, "God is very willing that they go into second death". Can you provide ONE verse from the Bible that says this? I ask this not only from you, but every person that believes this.

Hebrews states to us that Jesus died for the many, correct?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Hebrews states to us that Jesus died for the many, correct?

9:28? correct.

John Calvin says on this:

"To bear, or, take away sins, is to free from guilt by his satisfaction those who have sinned. He says the sins of many, that is, of all, as in Ro 5:15. It is yet certain that all receive no benefit from the death of Christ; but this happens, because their unbelief prevents them. At the same time this question is not to be discussed here, for the Apostle is not speaking of the few or of the many to whom the death of Christ may be available; but he simply means that he died for others and not for himself; and therefore he opposes many to one"

And also on Mark 14:24, "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many", where Calvin says, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse". Does not sound very "Calvinistic" to me?

I might add, that with "many", the Greek is, "τὸ πολλῶν", THE many, which means either "a very large number", or "the totality of", in which case it cannot refer to the "elect", as they will never be in the "majority", buy always in the "minority". So if you suppose this to be a verse to benefit your theology, I refer you to Mr Calvin, who gets this right.

Robert William please note John Calvin's two comments.

 

[Yeshua1]

9:28? correct.

John Calvin says on this:

"To bear, or, take away sins, is to free from guilt by his satisfaction those who have sinned. He says the sins of many, that is, of all, as in Ro 5:15. It is yet certain that all receive no benefit from the death of Christ; but this happens, because their unbelief prevents them. At the same time this question is not to be discussed here, for the Apostle is not speaking of the few or of the many to whom the death of Christ may be available; but he simply means that he died for others and not for himself; and therefore he opposes many to one"

And also on Mark 14:24, "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many", where Calvin says, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse". Does not sound very "Calvinistic" to me?

I might add, that with "many", the Greek is, "τὸ πολλῶν", THE many, which means either "a very large number", or "the totality of", in which case it cannot refer to the "elect", as they will never be in the "majority", buy always in the "minority". So if you suppose this to be a verse to benefit your theology, I refer you to Mr Calvin, who gets this right.

Robert William please note John Calvin's two comments.

Calvin would agree that Jesus death was sufficient to have saved all sinners, but was intended to save only those God would effectually apply it towards! Limited Atonement

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Calvin would agree that Jesus death was sufficient to have saved all sinners, but was intended to save only those God would effectually apply it towards! Limited Atonement

thats what you say Calvin believed, his own words above go much further, Re-read them very carefully.

 

[Yeshua1]

thats what you say Calvin believed, his own words above go much further, Re-read them very carefully.

if Jesus death atoned for all sinners, and reconcilled them all back to God, why any ever lost?

 

[Iconoclast]

WOW!!! I certainly do hope that you are the only Reformed/Calvinist on BB that holds

the Bible verses that I have given clearly disagree with you.

BTW, you marked "prayers" for me when I said that Iconoclast was in error by his comment, "God is very willing that they go into second death". Can you provide ONE verse from the Bible that says this? I ask this not only from you, but every person that believes this.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yes....looks like He is very willing that they be cast into the lake of Fire

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

if Jesus death atoned for all sinners, and reconcilled them all back to God, why any ever lost?

The term "atonement" is not used in the NT, the others terms that are, "bought", sin-offering", "ransom", are all used for the whole human race. Look at the last on in 1 Timothy 2:6 and context (verses 1-4), where ἀντίλυτρον is used for, "what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom" (Thayer); "a ramson, price of redemption" (Bloomfield; Parkhurst); "and equivalent for redemption, a ransom" (Robinson). Where it is used for the "purchase-price paid to set free". But ONLY upon REPENTANCE. This shows beyond any doubt, that Jesus' Death is "potential" and not "actual", as He died to "offer" salvation.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yes....looks like He is very willing that they be cast into the lake of Fire

Is this addressed to me? are you suggesting that I am not saved?

 

[atpollard]

"God is very willing that they go into second death". Can you provide ONE verse from the Bible that says this? I ask this not only from you, but every person that believes this.

Isaiah 63:1-6 NASB

1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
“It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3 “I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4 “For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5 “I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6 “I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”​

I don’t sense any reluctance from God to do what needs doing.

 

[atpollard]

"God is very willing that they go into second death". Can you provide ONE verse from the Bible that says this? I ask this not only from you, but every person that believes this.

Matthew 7:15-23 NASB

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
​

No lack of willingness here either ... but what does God REALLY think of sinners?

[Lev 26:30 NASB] 30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.
[Job 9:31 NASB] 31 Yet You would plunge me into the pit, And my own clothes would abhor me.
[Psa 5:6 NASB] 6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Romans 9:21-24 NASB

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. ​

Is ‘what if’ just a ‘what if’ (then why even mention it in the Bible) or is God really “willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known“?

 

[Iconoclast]

Saved-By-Grace,

WOW!!! I certainly do hope that you are the only Reformed/Calvinist on BB that holds to your anti-Bible views![/QUOTE]

Here is a verse for you;
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Not only are you clueless on the topic, but now you try this.You are the one who posted this garbage;

The Death of Jesus Christ is not "actual" and it did not actually save anyone,

the last time I heard such a horrible statement it was by Herbert Armstrong.

You say that what I say is "absurd",

Your posting this is quite absurd....take a poll....most everyone will agree...no one supports such a profane posting.

and then say things that are AGAINST what the God of the Bible says in His own Word.

No....I said nothing against God or His word. I just understand those passages in context.

You wrote, "God is very willing that they go into second death"

,

Yes reprobates will be cast into outer darkness...that is God's will for them.

which is that God desires/wills that the wicked sinner goes to hell and suffer eternally

.

Yes....wicked unrepentant sinners will be cast into Hell by God's command. God has decreed it.

This, my friend exposes your own heart, that is NOT God's

Your defective theological ideas do not expose my heart or anyone elses.

, and I encourage you to take a break from BB and seek the Lord for forgiveness and getting right with Him, before you get worse and drift further. LISTEN to what the God of the Bible actually WILLS.

You denied the accomplishment of redemption here, so....I do not think I need to take seriously anything you post.

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)

Good verse....God does not take pleasure in their destruction,,, but they will be cast into hell nevertheless.

"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye"

They are urged to repent because there is a final judgment.....for sure.

The word "pleasure" is from the Hebrew verb, חָפֵץ, which means, "to desire, will, like, be pleased"

.

We do not need you hebrew or greek musings as you do not know what you are talking about.

So, what God here says in Ezekiel, and elsewhere in the Bible,

No....it is what you say that we all see as defective.

is that He does NOT DESIRE or WILL that ANY wicked/sinful person goes to eternal punishment,

God's will is that all sinners outside of Christ will be cast into Hell.

that is the reason Jesus Christ came!

Evidently you have no idea why Jesus came.

May the Lord grant you His Mercy and give you understanding

,

Thanks..he has

as your views do NOT reflect His Word.

I just quote scripture...what it actually says...with understanding.

You seriously need help, as you have this very bad habit to mark serious things that I say, as "funny" on here!

Politically correct persons have removed the emoticons that show displeasure, thumbs down, a red X,etc....so the funny emoticon shows a response to clown like posts, that is...those who are not to be taken seriously....I could use this one for your postings, until you get serious.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is this addressed to me? are you suggesting that I am not saved?

I have not suggested anything...are we a bit paranoid?

If you did not know it, those were just a couple of verses showing God being very willing to have unsaved persons cast into hell.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Matthew 7:15-23 NASB

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
​

No lack of willingness here either.

How you guys like to read your theological bias into Scripture that does not say anything of what you hope it does. If you can read correctly, you will see that Jesus is here speaking of "professing believers", you have "a form of godliness", but in reality live lives that show that they were never truly saved. Read 2 Peter and Jude to get a better understanding.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Isaiah 63:1-6 NASB

1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
“It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3 “I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4 “For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5 “I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6 “I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”​

I don’t sense any reluctance from God to do what needs doing.

ALL unrepentant sinners will suffer the consequences if their refusal to repent, and spend eternity in hell. This is the theme of the whole Bible. This does not say that God "desires/wills" that any sinner goes into eternal punishment. the passages from Ezekiel that I have quoted, show this not to be the case. can you deal with these Scripture references?

 

[Iconoclast]

How you guys like to read your theological bias into Scripture that does not say anything of what you hope it does. If you can read correctly, you will see that Jesus is here speaking of "professing believers", you have "a form of godliness", but in reality live lives that show that they were never truly saved. Read 2 Peter and Jude to get a better understanding.

False professors are...unsaved ...also.You have no point here....

 

[atpollard]

ALL unrepentant sinners will suffer the consequences if their refusal to repent, and spend eternity in hell. This is the theme of the whole Bible. This does not say that God "desires/wills" that any sinner goes into eternal punishment. the passages from Ezekiel that I have quoted, show this not to be the case. can you deal with these Scripture references?

Sure I could, but why should I.
You asked for verses from any and all Calvinists that indicate that God desires any sinner to go to Hell.
You then reject all verses provided because they do not have the exact wording that you are looking for Calvinists to provide and respond to what we have presented with little more than ‘we don’t understand scripture and should go read your verses instead’.

So my turn to play that game: Where is the verse that says “God cries a river of tears as he casts people into Hell”.

I presented verses that suggest no reluctance on God’s part to punish or damn. I know of no Calvinist that thinks God chuckles with maniacal glee at damning people. I am unsure what you are looking for from Calvinists except specific verbiage that does not exist in scripture that no one claims exists in scripture.

 

[atpollard]

How you guys like to read your theological bias into Scripture that does not say anything of what you hope it does. If you can read correctly, you will see that Jesus is here speaking of "professing believers", you have "a form of godliness", but in reality live lives that show that they were never truly saved. Read 2 Peter and Jude to get a better understanding.

So ‘I never knew you, DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS’ in Matthew 7:23 was spoken with tears of regret pouring from the cheeks of Jesus, the Righteous Judge?